i can't get enough of this local color!
when it came to writing up my reactions to my most recent viewing of SGA season one, i started ranting again about everyone in the pegasus galaxy being JERKS, because i get so worked up during "underground" and "the storm/the eye." PEOPLE IN THE PEGASUS GALAXY ARE JERKS, i wrote in all-caps in my notes. (i took notes! of course i took notes. jules
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I think the fact that they're willing to trade all this spectacular science and technology, plus favors, for food, shelter, any help against the Wraith, and other mundane things is a pretty convincing show of good will.
that's what gets me ranting in the first placethat they come in peace (oh my god, i just typed that unironically), they're honestly looking for friends and help, and they have the city of atlantis at their disposal, and the genii et al. (but especially the genii) don't say "awesome, an ally," they think "must humiliate and destroy. oh, they mentioned explosives, let's steal that first."
bad luck and trauma! i want a t-shirt from the pegasus galaxy tourism board, because that would totally be their motto.
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LOL. There are a few hints that the neo-Atlanteans are trying to change their approach to first contact. For one, though Sheppard, as leader of the flagship exploration team, is still responsible for the first meeting with many civilizations, he defers to Weir on actually making trade arrangements in S2. John's a smart boy but, really, he fails at negotiation. Most notably in "Underground" and "The Storm," both of which brought the Genii down on their heads. I like to think all off-world teams now make contact and see if anyone's interested in trading, then report back to Weir. Depending on initial impressions and this first exchange, Weir might go off-world to broker a deal. This, I think, is a somewhat more sensitive approach.
Of course, the neo-Atlanteans can afford to be more diplomatic now that they aren't stranded in Pegasus and the threat of a Wraith attack isn't hanging over their heads like a sword.
Besides, not everybody wants to kill them on sight! Not even the Genii. At first. I'll have to watch "Underground" again, but I think the Genii and the neo-Atlanteans weren't getting along too bad until Sheppard and McKay stumbled over the secret underground bunker. That was smoothed over... only to have the situation nearly explode again over the waking of the Wraith. Sheppard managed to work around even that, but the bridges were fully burned by the time the strike force returned from the hive ship.
OTOH, the Athosians have been very kind, as has Ronon, though that doesn't say much for the rest of his people. From "Critical Mass," we know Atlantis keeps in contact with the kids from "Childhood's End," and the natives in "Letters From Pegasus" and "Instinct" also weren't too bad. The neo-Atlanteans even had a pretty productive partnership with the Hoffans, as well as a promising start with the Olesians. For a while.
...!
You know what? It just occurred to me (yeah, yeah, everyone thought of this years ago) that all that wonderful technology the neo-Atlanteans use, besides being strange and thus intimidating, might raise hackles because the only comparable technology most in Pegasus have seen or can remember was Wraith. This is, of course, the worst association possible. I'm thinking the Pegasus natives need to personally experience how helpful the neo-Atlanteans are in fighting off the Wraith before they'll fully extend the hand of friendship. Time to start the rumors, people! "Ah, yes! You mean that time we blew away five hive ships...?"
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actually, we haven't seen that much first contact in S2. i haven't seen "epiphany" or "critical mass" yet, so if we have first contact there, don't tell me; but out of the first eleven episodes, only "condemned" and "instinct" were classic sheppard's team goes offworld and tries to make nice. sheppard didn't get a chance to negotiate with anyone in "condemned" (though eventually he made a good show of bargaining for their lives); and i don't remember what kind of negotiation they were looking to do in "instinct," but that's kinda the pointthey were distracted by greater events. do you just mean that since we haven't seen sheppard doing any negotiation, he must be leaving it to weir?
his negotiation in "underground" and "the storm" is wildly unsuccessful, but it's as much a factor of negotiating with hostile, unwilling parties as his skills, or lack thereof (plus there's the matter of plot purposes: if you'd sent weir, or any good negotiator, that would have sunk the premises of the episodes). that said, it seems that sheppard approaches negotiations from a military rather than diplomatic POVnot that he's *hostile*, but when he comes in good faith he expects the same in return; he makes few allowances for posturing and has little patience for it (see also: ronon in "trinity") and grows quicklyand obviouslyincredulous, and then pissed off, at their selfishness and bad faith. so yes, in that sense he would be much better off as backup for an actual negotiator.
I think the Genii and the neo-Atlanteans weren't getting along too bad until Sheppard and McKay stumbled over the secret underground bunker.
well, yes, for values of "getting along" that include "we will not kill you before you can leave this planet." at the outset of negotiation cowan said the medicine, etc. wasn't going to be good enough, and even teyla was like, "wow, you guys aren't usually such incredible jerks, what gives?" and then later they want the medicine *and* the C4, which makes everyone on the team say, "o.O" then later they find the secret underground bunker and it all goes to hell, but the genii did not give off goodwill vibes at any point.
I'm thinking the Pegasus natives need to personally experience how helpful the neo-Atlanteans are in fighting off the Wraith before they'll fully extend the hand of friendship. Time to start the rumors, people! "Ah, yes! You mean that time we blew away five hive ships...?"
ooh, the association-of-fear factor, i never thought of that. exceptwell, we've seen no evidence of it, and we *have* seen evidence of the opposite. i've never gotten the impression that anyone in pegasus thinks the neo-atlanteans are in any way in league with the wraith; and they all remember the ancients (that is, they have cultural memory), so they might be intimidated by their technological advantage (though, again, they never act the part), but they shouldn't really associate it with the wraith. and the biggest argument against it is the genii again: the genii have first-hand experience with the ancient technology and actually saw and spent some time in the city itself, but they still only want to kill off the expedition members, or enslave them. at the very least they want to steal their technology and use it themselves, rather than work with the neo-atlanteans, even (or especially) when they 1) can't benefit from it and 2) it'll sabotage the neo-atlanteans efforts. see, especially: kolya going after the ZPM in "the brotherhood." spreading the "we blew away five hive ships! how do you like us now?" rumors certainly couldn't hurt, but at that point you have to wonder why the humans in pegasus have to be hit over the head with the "we have superior technology that has a very good chance of defeating the wraith" stick so hard and so often before they believe it, or care.
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Not so much, no. Though in "Condemned," Sheppard specifically defers to Weir on making trade arrangements with the Olesians. He introduced the neo-Atlanteans and felt out whether anybody wanted to trade, what might be traded, and whether there'd be any "moral hiccups." After the initial meeting, he radioed Weir, got from her the order to continue, then went to the magistrate with:
"Well, Dr. Elizabeth Weir will be the one to begin official negotiations with. That's really her thing."
Since this was the procedure Sheppard and the flagship recon team followed, I figured it was a general change in policy. This reading is somewhat supported by Lorne reporting back to Weir in "The Lost Boys" with the news that so-and-so people don't seem interested in trading.
Sheppard et al. weren't past the meet-and-greet stage with the villagers in "Instinct" before finding out there was a Wraith loose in the woods. At which point, Sheppard went into military mode and mounted a search, any and all trade sidelined.
that said, it seems that sheppard approaches negotiations from a military rather than diplomatic POV
Yeah, that's what I meant. Though I think Sheppard personally puts a lot of stock in friendship; he'd be willing to go to great lengths to help a friend in need, and he expects the same from those who consider him friend. In negotiating the evacuation site for Atlantis in "The Storm," Sheppard seemed like he fundamentally couldn't understand why he was being asked for more than an IOU. I think he badly wants to believe the best of people and, when disappointed, he reacts... badly. Which is to say things tend to degenerate into violence or the threat thereof. So, no, not the ideal guy to send out on a first contact negotiation.
As you pointed out, Ronon tends to take the same view as Sheppard (with an even shorter fuse and much less optimism) and McKay... well. That leaves Teyla to settle all the disputes and trouble her teammates get in, lol.
at the outset of negotiation cowan said the medicine, etc. wasn't going to be good enough, and even teyla was like, "wow, you guys aren't usually such incredible jerks, what gives?"
I got that the Genii were playing hard. The neo-Atlanteans had much to give and were desperate for food. This is not out of any ill will but aggressively advocating Genii interests. The Genii were willing to talk and be allies-had negotiations progressed without the Genii feeling threatened by Sheppard and McKay discovering the bunker, with possibly several more exchanges back and forth, the Genii might've backed off a bit.
This is a process Teyla shows an understanding of in "Trinity." Though there, as in "Underground," her affiliation with the neo-Atlanteans and all that shiny made it harder to come to an agreement because the other party expected more out of the trade from the outset.
Hmm. Maybe if the neo-Atlanteans had initiated all first contacts after "Rising" wearing Athosian clothing and carrying only concealed weapons, the Pegasus galaxy wouldn't be so demanding and, when those demands couldn't be met, hostile.
i've never gotten the impression that anyone in pegasus thinks the neo-atlanteans are in any way in league with the wraith
Not so much in league with the Wraith as capable of taking the Wraith's places as overlords of Pegasus. The Wraith are an example of the kind of domination a race with superior technology can force. So, the natives are apt to mistrust the good intentions of the neo-Atlanteans because, hey, why aren't they trying to conquer us? In order to fully gain the trust of these people, the neo-Atlanteans have to show that not only are they willing to fight and defeat the Wraith but that afterwards they'll still play nice and won't use the leverage them being the best Wraith killers in the galaxy would give them.
Of course, the sad thing is that the neo-Atlanteans are genuinely looking for allies and friends, not subjects or slaves. Only nobody believes them, and I don't think anyone will until the Wraith attack, they die fighting the Wraith alone, and they make it clear the offer of friendship is still open.
Man, that sucks.
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ah, okay; i've seen "condemned" exactly once, and most of my memory of the episode is taken up with the team getting dirty and tied up, rodney's lying/crisis of confidence, ronon's need for orders, and john abandoning a planet to the wraith. but that all makes sense!
Sheppard seemed like he fundamentally couldn't understand why he was being asked for more than an IOU. I think he badly wants to believe the best of people and, when disappointed, he reacts... badly.
word, word, word. of course, *i* can't understand why he was being asked for more than an IOU eitherit's one of the things that prompted me to make this post in the first place.
The Genii were willing to talk and be allies-had negotiations progressed without the Genii feeling threatened by Sheppard and McKay discovering the bunker, with possibly several more exchanges back and forth, the Genii might've backed off a bit.
possibly. but more telling than their hard-driving bargains was their attitude which was basically JERKY all the way through. but i don't knowmaybe they would have revealed their squishy nougat centers given enough time to thaw.
Hmm. Maybe if the neo-Atlanteans had initiated all first contacts after "Rising" wearing Athosian clothing and carrying only concealed weapons, the Pegasus galaxy wouldn't be so demanding and, when those demands couldn't be met, hostile.
imaybe? they certainly met with their share of hostility when they represented themselves honestly. though the questions might arise as to where exactly the athosians came across synthetically manufactured medicines and brand-name energy bars. and it still doesn't answer my basic question of why the peoples decided to make enemies when friends would have been so much easierand a hell of a lot more materially rewarding (in the short and long runs).
In order to fully gain the trust of these people, the neo-Atlanteans have to show that not only are they willing to fight and defeat the Wraith but that afterwards they'll still play nice and won't use the leverage them being the best Wraith killers in the galaxy would give them.
if that's the thought process taking place in the minds of the pegasus natives, it would explain a few things, but it would still be incredibly short-sighted and PERPLEXING. the status quo in pegasus is that every few generations, life-sucking space vampires descend on just about every planet in the galaxy with their terrifically advanced spaceships and cull most of the population, leaving only enough to reproduce for the next culling in a few decades or a hundred years or so. it's been the status quo for ten thousand freaking years: excellent chance of you AND everyone you know and love getting beamed aboard alien spaceships, stored in cocoons for an indefinite amount of time, and taken out later to have your life sucked out of you through your chestwhich looks incredibly painful.
so i understand the proverb the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, but this particular scenario would go something like this:
neo-atlanteans: whoa! wraith! okay, we might be able to do something about this.
pegasus galaxy: *scorn and derision*
neo-atlanteans: well, at the very least we have *ideas*! i mean, we could put our heads together: our technology with your experience . . .
pegasus galaxy: oh, and when that's all over you think you can just WALTZ ON IN and we'll kiss your stupid earth-boots? we don't THINK so.
neo-atlanteans: um, boot-kissing is nice, but a "thanks for defeating the life-sucking aliens!" would be good enough. maybe some cookies if they just *happened* to be coming out of the oven.
pegasus galaxy: riiiight. but you can't guarantee a complete lack of future subjugation and slavery, can you? we'd rather not take the chance, kthx.
neo-atlanteans: but. LIFE-SUCKING ALIENS.
pegasus galaxy: hey, the devil you know . . .
neo-atlanteans: oh, of ALL THE EARTH PROVERBS YOU COULD KNOW.
i mean, there's paranoia, there's xenophobia, and then there's WHAT DO YOU POSSIBLY HAVE LEFT TO LOSE.
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Hahaha. I only had the vaguest impression that Sheppard reported in to Weir before doing any negotiation. Of course, I didn't bother to watch the episode again myself; I copied and pasted from the transcripts at GateNoise.
Better the devil you know...
if that's the thought process taking place in the minds of the pegasus natives, it would explain a few things, but it would still be incredibly short-sighted and PERPLEXING.
Hmm... ‹thinky›
Okay. Perhaps 10,000 years of domination by the Wraith have left the human natives of Pegasus with so little that they defend what they have all the more fiercely?
Do not betray your people and your family. Death before dishonor.
Which is to say, when Teyla says so-and-so are a proud people, she really isn't kidding. The people of Pegasus would rather die fighting the Wraith then ally with the neo-Atlanteans to defeat the Wraith forever if it means a life of servitude after the dust settles. And the cultures in the best position to resist the Wraith-for example, the Genii, who are in addition very militant-would be the least willing to bend unless the neo-Atlanteans lay everything on the table from the start.
I dunno. Does that work? :p
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