In Good Conscience or None at All

[viridian5]

No real spoilers, just a need to vent.

I may have to leave a list I'm on due to the reaction to Buffy's "Seeing Red" before I blow my top utterly. My sanity is too important to me to get this upset over fen stuff involving a show that I've hated this season anyway. I've hated Spuffy. I've felt like the characters haven't been themselves in a long

Comments

Redemptionista?

[calligrafiti]

I've never really understood the need to make Spike secretly good. Or yearning to be good. Or, deep in his poetic heart of hearts, a decent guy. He's a very good bad guy. The bit where they showed his human self as a whimpy, bad poet gave more depth and motivation to his later bad guy status, but I don't see where it makes him good. The fact that he's gorgeous, frequently charming, and a joy to watch makes his bad guy status a little more tragic perhaps. It shows a seductive side to evil, which I think needs to be shown more--it helps people understand why some folks are drawn to the darker side and keeps things from being too one dimensional

Re: Redemptionista?

[calligrafiti]

Actually, what Spike was doing and saying reminded me very much of his idea on how to get Drusilla back: go torture her and show her he's still the man he thinks he is. He didn't intend to torture Buffy, IMHO, but he did intend to remind her of her dark side -- which is the last thing she wanted. And he never was good at listening to "no." But I found Warren a far worse monster than Spike ever was, and more frightening.
Kit

Re: Redemptionista?

[viridian5]

I don't think Spike meant it as punishment--he really seemed to have some idea that she'd get into it eventually after he "showed her she wanted it"--but his inability to listen to "no" being screamed at him as she struggles makes it very wrong. Intentions only make a certain degree of difference in the face of some acts.

Warren is frightening, partly for being such a banal evil. And he tried to rape his girlfriend while she was briefly under his mind control, then killed her while she was trying to escape. It really looks like he's out to punish anyone who ever "wronged" him or kept him from something he wanted. I mean, he went after the guy who bullied him in fifth grade....

Re: Redemptionista?

[calligrafiti]

So I don't know if I'm the only one who thought Spike's actions in the bathroom were more in character for him than anything else in this past season. I think they were a big ball of wrong, but I also think that Spike is a bad guy who does a lot of things I view as wrong, so it fits.

I'm definitely with you there. There are so many people on a.t.b-v-s, for example, who are all, "Spike's definitely crossed the line with this! He's irredeemably evil now!" To which I want to reply, "He's been irredeemably evil for four seasons now; where've you been

[3jane]

What I came back to after watching Seeing Red was Lovers Walk, and Spike's need to make Drusilla love him. Especially the bit about, I'm going to find her, tie her up, torture her, 'til she likes me again. I don't think that's exactly what's going on with him and Buffy, but I think it's important to remember that Spike's concept of love is tied up with his being The Big Bad.

Huh. Not sure that made any sense, but.

[viridian5]

It does make sense. Buffy and Spike's ideas about what love is and how you act under it are very different. He's part of the violent passion school of romance, where killing someone would be a gift that shows you care.... Besides, the former love of his life, over centuries, was Drusilla. Enough said.

Amazed as always

[wickdzoot]

I don't get people, I guess.

There was a lot of this back in the bad old days in XF. Let's make Krycek a sweet, fluffy bunny, a 'I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way' kinda guy. I mean, jeez, folks. One of the reasons I loved Krycek was his ambiguous agenda and his unabashely self-serving, pro-Krycek badness. You just never knew what that bad boy was going to do next.

And all the apologist/redemptionista cadre ever did was make me wonder if they were watching the same show. Like you, I say, hell, see him the way you want, just don't hammer me because I don't see it or get it.

Re: Amazed as always

[viridian5]

You know that I love my shades of gray characters. ::grins:: Give me someone with a bit of wildness and ruthlessness any day....