[spn tv] Unpopular opinion on 5.18

[vikki]

Firstly, I'm back from my trip, and it was awesome. Surprisingly awesome. I'm so far behind on my f-list and my 5.18 squee - I'll get around to replying to people eventually, I hope. In the meantime, however ...

HAPPY (BELATED) BIRTHDAY TO MARIO! You're a quarter-century old now

Comments

[emerald_embers]

I have to say, when I'm looking at gifs or screenshots of the screen, I do find it kind of hot. I'm a whumper and in those situations I'm viewing everything objectively - more or less without context.

As soon as I'm watching it inside the show, it's a heart breaker for me; because both of them are so broken in their own ways and it kills me; Castiel's been using Dean almost as a substitute for Heaven and he's so let down and ow, and then Dean is just crushed with the weight of the world and ASFADADFASFAS BOOOOOOYS

[vikki]

Ever since seeing the scene, even with minimal context from the promo clip, I found the reaction that this scene was so 'slashy' a little skeevy. That being said, I also found it deeply emotionally satisfying as a viewer, and emotionally intense. Once the scene was endowed with full context I found the fandom reaction even less to my tastes, hence this rant.

(all these icons are popping up using it to promote Dean/Castiel and I mean, I don't mind the fandom slash, but WHY D= )

[I am so totally about the whump, guys - I love beating up my favorite character(s), and yeah - Castiel on his knees in front of Uriel, Alastair, umph. ♥ But this scene - Dean is so broken, and I can't get behind whump when it just breaks a character and doesn't force them to get up and fight back. Gah.]

[goldenusagi]

I'm not really sure that the scene is erotically charged, either. It is hot in the fact that Jensen and Misha are all up in each other's personal space (and those closeup screencaps are wow), but strictly from canon, I see a lot of anger and fury, and nothing like UST. I agree that Castiel beating up Dean was not the right thing to do, but I think he just snapped. Though even while snapping, he obviously didn't completely snap. He had to be pulling his punches or he would have killed Dean. Which means he's just venting, not actually trying to truly hurt Dean. And yeah, he shouldn't have done it, but I think Castiel was at the end of his rope at this point. And it is abusive, since Cas is how many times stronger than Dean? Though I think the girlfriend/boyfriend analogy isn't the correct one, since Dean and Castiel aren't in a romantic relationship. But you're right, you would never see a man beating up a woman in a context like that and have it presented like that. But yeah, the analogy has less to do with gender and more

[vikki]

The getting up in each other's personal space - yeah, that. Like I said in my rant, I do get that some of the visual clues are very erotic, but the scene taken as a whole ...?

Though I think the girlfriend/boyfriend analogy isn't the correct one, since Dean and Castiel aren't in a romantic relationship.
I do agree, although any guy beating up on a girl where the girl is getting tossed around like Dean is here would be regarded as horrifying.

I threw in the reference, however, because the people who are reacting to this scene as erotic or sexually intense are people who view the show through 'slash goggles' to some extent, e.g. people who draw on subtext (and sometimes text! WHAT SHOW) to extrapolate a romantic relationship between Dean and Castiel. If you're going to view them as a couple, I feel it's important that you acknowledge that this scene is problematic in a way not unlike an abusive relationship. (Especially this being an episode dealing specifically with angelic possession, which is spoken of in an overtly sexual

[fireffly]

Nudder POV.
I think it was very important that Cas let loose on Dean. Look back at the entire Winchester history, back to John and the boys, memories Dean has spoken of, or Sam has. The Winchesters are basically emotional idiots, they do not talk, share, or actually deal with feelings. When John died Dean punched Sam. This is how they communicate, or start to, at least. John to Dean, Dean to Sam, and with the level of pain and violence in their lives, it's not a stretch that violence will lead to emotions, perhaps thought, maybe, hopefully, insight. Cas might not be right, it might not be logical, but it is the Winchester way. Hot or otherwise, that's open to debate. Personally I was just really glad that Castiel, the Warrior of God, (I mean he was supposed to have been a Warrior for how long) stopped acting like Dean butt buddy and got stood up. Wussy Cas pisses me off. But, to sum up, they were communicating, in my opinion

[vikki]

You're right, of course, about Winchester communicating or opening up communication channels via physical violence. I guess I'm resisting the idea that Castiel takes all of his cues from Dean and Sam. :\

[vikki]

You're welcome! I'm sure we'll see each other sometime over the summer ♥

[ibroketuesday]

However, I still don't think that Castiel choosing to beat Dean to a pulp was the right thing to do.

Oh, agreed. I think it was understandable; I also think it was wrong. Honestly, all of your points are valid once. I see this scene as erotic because violence is kind of hot, and dysfunctional relationships are hot, and emotional intensity is hot; the power dynamics don't squick me. If they squick you, that's fine. Reaction to this scene is pretty YMMV.

On the other hand, I also think Castiel backs off because he realizes that if he continues, he will kill Dean, and that's tactically stupid.

I disagree, actually! Castiel could have killed Dean and then torn his body apart at an atomic level, just as Anna planned to do with Sam, so that it couldn't be resurrected; hence, no risk of a yes. But he didn't do that.

[vikki]

the power dynamics don't squick me.
You out of everyone in the fandom probably know best how I feel about power dynamics, by which I mean I really need to finish that damn Zach/Cas fic. Sometimes I find such things really really hot! But I much prefer power dynamics in a manipulative way, and in general, if I'm going to view a relationship as 'romantic' I much prefer the players to be on the level, which is probably why I have such a problem with it here.

Castiel could have killed Dean and then torn his body apart at an atomic level
HOLY CRAP you have no idea how much food for thought this has given me over the last couple of days. This is true. Which means - and this is terrible, and terrifying - Castiel is the only being who could AND would truly kill Dean. Not that I think Castiel would do it, but when Dean begs for death, well - he might have every reason to think that Castiel could properly end him and oh, ouch ouch ouch