I've been having the best meta conversation...

[velvet_mace]

On fandomsecrets of all places.

I've been talking about the art of writing for the past three days. It somehow went from the problem of not getting enough comments to how to punch up your fic to the different types of foreshadowing.

My only regret is that it totally threadjacked this poor chick's secret.

Comments

[lackaz]

I usually just lurk but...that was epic. o-o

I think reading that has been more useful than any of the 'practise writing' that I've been doing for a long while. I find, however, that not having a critical audience makes it easier to fall into a rut, and stay there, even if what you're producing isn't that great, or at least not a great as you'd like to make it. This was actually useful and real stuff. A lot of the resources I've read about writing have come across as a bit...fake? More like 'oh, this is what I am supposed to say' rather than 'this is what I have actually experienced as a writer'.

Thanks for sharing this. A lot of the accumulated wisdom there will be a great help.

[velvet_mace]

I find, however, that not having a critical audience makes it easier to fall into a rut, and stay there, even if what you're producing isn't that great, or at least not a great as you'd like to make it.

That was really my problem. Without feedback I never knew how my writing was effecting anyone. I could get really boring without realizing it. In fact some of the parts that I found personally exciting and engaging turned out to be really snore-worthy to other people -- that was a big surprise for me. Just because what I'd written had resonated with my own imagination didn't mean that it was going to resonate with anyone else's.

And then there were the plot holes: I had characters doing stupid things because they were convenient to my plot, not because they made any sense for the characters to do. And that kind of laziness just doesn't wash. Audiences just don't just gloss over the crappy bits knowing that it gets better later. Funny thing that.

[lackaz]

I hate the "what you find engaging reallly isn't" surprise. It's a little heartbreaking, really, because it all sounded so good in my head and it's worse if I actually really like the prose. But then that opens up the tricky writing for yourself/writing for an audience can of worms. It's got to be a balance, but if you are writing to share, you really need to do so with your intended audience in mind. It's just like high school essay writing...

As for plot holes, I think that that there is a little leeway, once you have built up a fan base and have them sucked in...but that reeks of cop out, and it's also pretty rude and unfair to your readers. If there's no other way out, sure, but painting into that corner seems like you've been doing it wrong from the start. This also strikes up the point of character driven versus plot driven, which is really just a matter of preferences. Although a little from column A and column B is good. That's good writing. As a reader myself, why would I was time reading something I find mediocre?

[velvet_mace]

Oh yeah, it really sucks, but the weird thing is, I go back years later and look back at the passage and I find myself agreeing with my readers. I was being tedious. Sometimes riding a writer's high is like being drunk. You think you are being so damn profound, but in the sober light of day what you wrote was just a shadow of the vision you had. And in my case, a particularly long winded and redundant shadow. (Hey if it felt good to say it once, it must hit that same high every time? ... no?).

I'm thinking about this time I had 3 chapters devoted to a character explaining his life story when it turned out that this guy's life story had no real impact on the story I was writing. It belonged in another novel. It was boring because honestly it was a plot synopsis to another novel. But oh at the time, I sure loved those chapters. I reread them over and over and they gave me the shudders every single time.

[eve_n_furter]

I love meta discussions and have been wondering why people doesn't do this more. Going through the fanficrants discussion at the moment, and I'm having a great time with it.

One question though: You say that with plotting in beforehand you keep your wiggle room while getting useful input on your story as you go. Have you never been afraid that a reviewer may point out a critical flaw at a late stage which in turn demands a total work-through of the plot?

Maybe I'm just not as disciplined as you, but that worry is the reason why I never publish WIP's and relies on beta readers to identify my plot holes in time. That's no real insurance, I know, but still.

[velvet_mace]

Well the problem I see it is that if there is a critical problem with my plot that my readers won't know about until a late stage, chances are that I, knowing the entire story and racing in to the finish line, wouldn't have picked up on it at all. Even if I completed the WIP before posting, I wouldn't have realized the problem until a reader gave me feedback.

At least I wouldn't have to rewrite the last chapters if it were a WIP.

But, here's the thing, even with a WIP I can't get my plot from my audience. I can only change how I present my plot. It's going to unfold regardless of what they feel. If they hate my characters, I have to work to make them more likable, not kill them off and put new ones in.

[velvet_mace]

And yeah, I'm pretty damn disciplined when it comes to plot. It's my big strength that I can think through the consequences to my characters actions.

[eve_n_furter]

True! :) And I love your writing for it.

[militsa]

[velvet_mace]

Yeah, it really bothered me when that one person said "well you shouldn't care about comments, they don't mean anything." For me that is just the big, unsatisfying cop out. It both puts the only tangible reward fandom gives to writers out of the writer's control, while at the same time sneering at them for daring to want something more than the enjoyment of writing the fic for themselves. It's a pretty bitter pill masquerading as comfort.

[eve_n_furter]

It's the classical "dare take a risk for love" plot! You have to put your feelings (writing) at risk to get the reward (meaningful comments).

[eve_n_furter]

Writing an epic about love and hurt in fandom has been a plotbunny of mine for ages, but in the end it's just too personal. Can't risk it ;D

[militsa]

[velvet_mace]

Well, I do think they want to share their writing, but they don't want to seem like they are beholden to their readers in any way. Purity of vision and all that. To cater to an audience is to somehow not be true to your muse.

Which, frankly, strikes me as being very defensive and insecure. It's easier to discount all comments than it is to accept that maybe your writing isn't having the affect that you were hoping it had. And after all you slaved over this fic making it the best it can be and all the reader did was read it, and hell they can't even spell the character's names right.

And there's the worry that you can't improve. This is the best you can do and it's not very good.

It's easier just to say "well people don't understand my vision" and blow them off entirely.