Meat

[vastatuuli]

I've been a vegetarian for over a year. During the past months, however, I've been giving a lot of thought to my decision and the whole topic of (not) eating meat. There are people who think my zero tolerance is unreasonable and illogical, and some arguments have convinced me that there is indeed some incoherence in my thinking. Therefore, I'm

Comments

[smurfindisguise]

I could have answered yes or no to all of them. I struggled with this for a long time. My fundamental beliefs are ultimately what I had to get down to to figure out what was right for me. I feel that the most ethical thing to do is what is most healthy for the life energy of the entire system. Even eating plants it harmful to the life energy of that plant, but it must be possible to both protect wildlife and plant life, and to eat vegetables. We need to essential nutrients, and the life energy of animals is also important. Therefore, there will always be a trade-off. For me, it comes down to the ethical treatment of the environment in which my foods are produced. For this reason, I try to eat organic and free-range for as much of my food as possible. I avoid meat, in general, because I think practices in animal treatment are far more likely to be unethical, due to their higher needs for a healthy environment

[vastatuuli]

Thank you for the in-depth reply! One of the main reasons why I stopped eating meat in the first place was the effect its production has on the environment, so I can relate to your way of thinking. It's just that the focus in my own thinking has now shifted towards animal ethics - a comparison between killing animals for food and killing plants for food isn't sensible. I can accept that a vegetarian diet isn't for everyone, just like eating meat won't contribute to everyone's health, and that's why I try not to preach but concentrate on finding my own ethics first.

[smurfindisguise]

And that's exactly what I feel you have to do. The plants comment is a philosophical prompt. Most folks *would* immediately respond "well that's different." But not all, and you have to ask yourself "why." Once you can answer why, you know much more about the philosophical basis for these decisions. Personally, I do believe that plants have a life energy to them that is the same as what animals and humans contribute to a healthy world. I just feel that they, for each individual, have perhaps less of it, but that also varies based on the wellness of each involved. As such, for me, the deliberate destruction of life for food is built into our entire universe, but there are ways of doing it that harm the animal in the upbringing, harm the environments that we utilize, etcetera. And there are ways of doing so that minimize that harm. That is where I find the ethical difference.

[ironlord]

matter how I look at it, I can't possibly think that it would be right to kill animals for their meat. There are simply no sound arguments to justify it.

Try telling that to a lion, a shark or a snake. The first two will rip their prey to shreds with absolutely no warning, the last will swallow its dinner whole, sometimes while it's still alive.

Animals who die at our hands get a far better deal.

[vastatuuli]

Fair enough, at least we have the means to lessen the suffering of animals, even if they aren't applied in most meat production today. However, lions, sharks and snakes will continue to kill their prey in all manner of ways whether we kill ours or not, so we can't reduce the total suffering by eating more meat.

[dustofempires]

I don't eat lots of meat, but I do eat it. And okay, I see why it could be morally wrong, I mean I LOVE animals. I love them more than people even. I'm a Darwinist and I see humans as just another animal - one that's gotten out of control, but that's a different subject, I'm not gonna rant about it here. Humans are omnivores, they've hunted for centuries, and raised animals for their meat, and milk and eggs and whatnot. It's an inherent part of human nature, just like killing for food is animal nature, like ironlord said. If you breed animals for food purposes only, they wouldn't even have been alive otherwise, so I think there's nothing wrong with killing them, in itself. Doesn't mean I approve of how they're treated, though, far from it. Killing is one thing, torture is another

[vastatuuli]

Thank you for your thoughts! I completely agree with your ETA and, as I said in a comment above, my reasons for turning vegetarian were originally motivated largely by environmental factors.

I think it's a naturalistic fallacy to say that killing is in our nature and hence killing for meat is okay. Unlike animals, we have the capacity to think about what's right and wrong. This obviously doesn't automatically lead to the way I think - that we therefore have an obligation to act according to what we think is right - but it makes it possible.

This probably makes me a bad animal rights supporter, but I don't think that life should necessarily be thought of as something inherently valuable. As in, it might be better for the major part of potential humans and other creatures not to be born. Existing life should be protected, but it's a bit like playing God if we breed a bunch of animals and then say we can kill them at will because we created them.

[dustofempires]

I think it's a naturalistic fallacy to say that killing is in our nature and hence killing for meat is okay. Unlike animals, we have the capacity to think about what's right and wrong.

That's true indeed, but it's all a question of ethics then. And that's SUCH a difficult matter cause people generally think that western christianity-based ethics apply to everything and everyone, but it's actually much more subjective imo. Anyway, that's another discussion =)

[variaatio]

Thank you for the questions - this is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately, but writing about it (openly, to my lj) seems slightly scary. I mean, there are people whose moral outrage, if directed towards me, I'd probably find justified

[vastatuuli]

If you're already alive, chances are you have to go through some horrible things anyway and death becomes only one of those things.

Ooh, fascinating point of view. I actually agree with you; giving life to someone or something that didn't ask for it is dubious, even though the argument is a dead end. I'm still not sure whether taking that very life away could be merciful - in some cases is is, without a doubt - but I'm trying to think if it's really "worse" than killing something that wasn't born to be killed.

Excellent thoughts, thank you. Please do write that post! I'm interested. :)

[dreamt]

I can't really answer the poll as I'm on the fence AND not sure it's about morals. I like chicken and fish most of all and occasionally meatballs and a certain type of meat dishes that my grandmother cooks. I have however lately stopped buying chicken because of the way they're treated in captivity. I just can't bring myself to endorse that crap and I want it to improve before I start paying again. That hasn't stopped me from eating my friend's delicious cooking though -_

[vastatuuli]

Thanks for the comment! Please don't mistake my super late reply for lack of interest or appreciation. I've continued to think about these things and all dialogue is always welcome.

I can't really answer the poll as I'm on the fence AND not sure it's about morals.

Could you elaborate on that a little - if it's not about morals, then what is it about? Or am I just missing something?

I know what you mean with the bunnies... I once stumbled across a forum where people were discussing rabbit meat production, and for some crazy reason I ended up reading this thread on ways to kill the rabbits. It was definitely informative, I was also a little shocked, but if I remember correctly, I was still an omnivore back then and just as much of a hypocrite. I guess it's just an extension of speciesism - loyalty to your own species, loyalty to the species you've chosen to live with. Companions, if you wish.

Everyone should have a chef in the family. I'm sure many more people would eat less meat if good vegetarian food only was available to them!

[dreamt]

Ooh tall order! You expect me to remember what I was thinking? XD