Discussion post for Meat

[the_silver_sun]

This is the discussion post for Meat (s2x04

Comments

My poor friend

[fide_et_spe]

This is such a strange episode. I really like bits of it. It features the most embarrassing line in JB history. Just need to cringe a minute thinking of it. I'm also cringing at the scene with Jack and Gwen where he's trying to stop her running to Rhys. In fact the episode as a whole features way too much Jack emoting

Re: My poor friend

[coldwater1010]

"In fact the episode as a whole features way too much Jack emoting."

Heh, yeah. Although I suspect it's mostly the acting than the fact that he's so emotional. And the dialogue.

[coldwater1010]

Is it just me? (Probably, but anyway). In the first episode of this season Owen seems to be hinting about a possible relationship with Tosh, but in this episode he seems to be back to being clueless Owen of s1. Is that just my imagination or a sign of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing or is Owen just being that contrary

[coldwater1010]

Also it's hard to make much of an argument that Jack plays favourites when it comes to his team since he's literally let them get away with murder in some cases,lol, but since this scene seems designed to set up just how personally significant Gwen is to Jack that he'd rather break the rules than lose her I always imagine this as a really weird moment, not just for Ianto, but for the team as a whole because I, suppose, the subtext is if it was them in a similar situation he would be willing to retcon them and send them packing and he probably wouldn't be crying about it. Which when you take the show as a whole doesn't make much sense because, as I said before, he lets his team get away with EVERYTHING, all the time (granted that's probably mostly because the actors had to stick around and is not necessarily supposed to be a reflection on how he's supposed to feel about them or need them personally, but still). I can't imagine it did much for team morale though.

[fide_et_spe]

I wonder if maybe they knew, or certainly RTD knew, that the plan was just to have Jack and Gwen, and to kill off the others. Because this episode is a good example of that. Although interestingly as you say in both your comments, it looks like it's setting up a triangle of some sort, even if it's only a triangle of Gwen teasing Jack etc. Yet in CoE and then even more so in MD that was completely quashed, any Jack and Gwen there ever was is in subtext in series 1 and 2

[coldwater1010]

I think the Jack/Gwen subtext beyond friendship ended once she married Rhys. It's very much there in SB, but after that *crickets*.

Yeah I do wonder how much would have changed for the Ianto as a zombie storyline, not from the episodes themselves, but the ones before them just because so many of the episodes seem so self-contained and little of what happens in one tends to pass on to the other and the arcs aren't always that great. So I can sort of see them writing this episode as is, but then later writing episodes that contradict that.

I'm not sure about planning to get rid of Ianto, Tosh and Owen by the end of s2 though. They probably planned to get rid of someone, Ianto most likely since he was always first up. I kind of feel that once they decided to get rid of Owen instead they threw Tosh in for good measure, although maybe she was always for the chopping block, and that they wrote COE as a way to wrap up the show. Not that Ianto would have survived even if they hadn't, but that's the vibe I get.

[fide_et_spe]

I always thought the attrition rate of the characters seemed daft, but I wonder if RTD planned on either not doing any more, or doing one more series, which in the end was CoE, because they did try and get a 13 ep series. It just feels like he wanted to go off to Hollywood, so would leave TW behind, but then of course he ended up needing it. It just seemed like he was winding it up, killing off two out of the five and then the third.

Good point about the Jack/Gwen ending at SB. It really did, although I'm not sure that some fans would agree, I mean I don't take Jack seriously in Adrift, but I'm sure the J/G fans say he was just using Ianto who is only a convenient shag and he invited Gwen in because that's what he really wanted etc etc. To be honest I don't think it's ever a really big deal, but it's a matter of perspective!

[itsmeyousee]

This ep is TW at it's worst good story full of missed opportunities and moments that make no sense what so ever, sometimes i wonder if they have 3 different groups of writers who never speak to each about what they are writer or watch what happens in the show

[ldarkfire]

I like Ianto in this episode a lot, I think that is one of the few episodes when we see him really like a field agent and it proves that with Jack coming back, he wasn't just push back to the previous role in the background (at lest not completely).

The Gwen/Jack thing kinda looks one-sided to me with the hole kissing Rhys and looking at Jack, I think he seems angry before he notes that she is kissing Rhys and is not like he looks jealous or sad because of it. Maybe disapproving? Gwen is very obviously unapologetic for someone who broke the most significant rule of her work.

In the ending Jack implied that he didn't want to lose Gwen but the same could be said of all the team. Ianto hid his cyber-girlfriend, Tosh let Mary in the base and Owen killed him, not to mention that all of them opened the rift and they were forgiven, I think is obvious that he would have a hard time letting go of any of them.