I wonder if maybe they knew, or certainly RTD knew, that the plan was just to have Jack and Gwen, and to kill off the others. Because this episode is a good example of that. Although interestingly as you say in both your comments, it looks like it's setting up a triangle of some sort, even if it's only a triangle of Gwen teasing Jack etc. Yet in CoE and then even more so in MD that was completely quashed, any Jack and Gwen there ever was is in subtext in series 1 and 2.
It does feel like they planned on Ianto, Tosh and Owen being gone by the end of series 2, then changed their mind. If that is the case, then this episode foreshadows that a lot, by separating Jack and Gwen from the others.
I know people who care about these things felt Catherine Treganna was very Jack/Gwen, probably for the reasons you say, but I wonder if RTD had a hand in the script as well, because he did tend to rewrite bits and add bits, and probably wouldn't have done it to Chris Chibnall but more likely to with her. Also the scripts for the undead Ianto were very romantic and soppy so I think the intention at this point was for Jack and Ianto to be more couply, that was changed when they decided to make Owen undead instead.
I think the Jack/Gwen subtext beyond friendship ended once she married Rhys. It's very much there in SB, but after that *crickets*.
Yeah I do wonder how much would have changed for the Ianto as a zombie storyline, not from the episodes themselves, but the ones before them just because so many of the episodes seem so self-contained and little of what happens in one tends to pass on to the other and the arcs aren't always that great. So I can sort of see them writing this episode as is, but then later writing episodes that contradict that.
I'm not sure about planning to get rid of Ianto, Tosh and Owen by the end of s2 though. They probably planned to get rid of someone, Ianto most likely since he was always first up. I kind of feel that once they decided to get rid of Owen instead they threw Tosh in for good measure, although maybe she was always for the chopping block, and that they wrote COE as a way to wrap up the show. Not that Ianto would have survived even if they hadn't, but that's the vibe I get.
I always thought the attrition rate of the characters seemed daft, but I wonder if RTD planned on either not doing any more, or doing one more series, which in the end was CoE, because they did try and get a 13 ep series. It just feels like he wanted to go off to Hollywood, so would leave TW behind, but then of course he ended up needing it. It just seemed like he was winding it up, killing off two out of the five and then the third.
Good point about the Jack/Gwen ending at SB. It really did, although I'm not sure that some fans would agree, I mean I don't take Jack seriously in Adrift, but I'm sure the J/G fans say he was just using Ianto who is only a convenient shag and he invited Gwen in because that's what he really wanted etc etc. To be honest I don't think it's ever a really big deal, but it's a matter of perspective!
Very good point there. I'm trying to think about Gray, I thought he does call him by name?
Yes I think it's vague, which is OK if it's deliberate with an over arching plan somewhere. I don't think Moffat is any better though. It all ends up being deus ex machina. To be honest it just shows how difficult this sort of writing is. I can't think of any examples where the writing is watertight, without plot holes or compromises. Except maybe one off films, but once you spread the story out it is tough.
Which bit of banter between Jack and Ianto? I think they are cute in this episode, and unlike a lot of Jack/Ianto fans I don't take the end seriously re them at all. I just think Jack is pissed off. I mean Gwen could be his daughter and it would be the same. She's being defiant, and he doesn't like it, but he doesn't want her to go. He's grumpy and sulks, and Ianto is just relieved that the row is over. I don't think that is or has to be about a romantic love. Not saying that if I was a J/G person I wouldn't try and argue that it is. However I do have friends who are casual viewers who never saw Jack as fancying Gwen, I think it really is in how you read it, it's not explicit. They do think she fancies Jack though, I think it's played in such a way that it could be her sort of fancying him the way you might do with a handsome boss, and him playing up to that, but seeing her more like a precious/rebellious daughter.
Re Gray, I thought you meant Jack didn't call him by name, not the other way around! Yes i get what you mean, they could have his brother calling him his real name, but then I suppose it can be confusing.
I wouldn't compare MD, but that's just my opinion, I think it's a level of fail that is incomparable to the previous three series when it comes to writing. I really don't want them to do any more of it, I would find it so depressing. If they want to bring TW back to Cardiff and do something with it, without that awful Rex person, then maybe. I just can't see it happening.
I do think we're supposed to see a romantic relationship between Jack and Gwen and certainly I think both EM and JB are playing it that they're hot for each other and while I think there's room for interpretation in the writing I do think the writers are writing a romance between them which they then drop once Gwen gets married. Otherwise their scenes in SB, for instance, make no sense.
I think the bigger weakness is probably emphasis. Jack/ Gwen and Rhys/Gwen even Jack/Gwen/Rhys get alot of attention, but Jack/Ianto on the otherhand mostly happen off-screen so you're having to interpret a lot from a very little. I mean Jack/Ianto work together so it makes sense there'd be less sentimentality or emotion shown between them on the job and I kind of like the idea that when they're working the job comes first. But then again it's not as if we're really privy to their more private moments except when innuendo is involved so if there is supposed to be more depth to their relationship than that we're never exactly made privy to it. of course I don't think JB's acting helps either. I'm not his biggest fan anyway, but he seems pretty unsubtle even for him in his episode. So maybe we're supposed to read conflict and fear as well as professionalism in those scenes and not just shouting and annoyance. Not that I mind the innuendo, but if later on you're going to have Jack willing to sacrifice the world for him it would be nice to get more of a sense why.
I also don't see Ianto as a character written to have much of a point of view maybe because he's so minor (or motivation for that matter) even in s2 which is probably great for fanfiction because you can kind of create your own, but probably less satisfying viewing wise.
He mostly comes off as bemused in those scenes at the end of Meat and before s3 and the radioplays I'd just assumed he was fine with it all since he seemed happy enough. But since so much is made about him being insecure about his place and meaning to Jack it's hard for me to buy there wouldn't be some sort of emotional fall out on his part. It doesn't really make much sense to me otherwise.
Oh I don't think Jack/Ianto are less that J/G, I think that's unfair. I mean see my icon, that scene is very deliberate, but of course Adam will come up in a couple of weeks.
I think that J/I is up front, but they are blokes and retain some sort of professionalism, although of course we do see them having sex in a work setting so I guess that's a bit unboundaried! Still i wouldn't agree with that argument at all. I also don't think there is a romance between Jack and Gwen. Not at all. What I meant was that some people didn't see it, and they were people who weren't in fandom, so had no idea that there were all these people out there actually caring about it and seeing it big time as it were. When I talked about TW with friends (none who are at all fannish, they just liked it) They would make comments like "I like that bloke in the suits, he's lovely, you know,Capt Jack's boyfriend" and "I like her, the shouty Welsh policewoman, she wants Jack, but can't have him.." So I think it can be interpreted without seeing any sort of actual romance.
I saw series 1 without looking at fandom because I didn't become that invested in it until series 2 started, and I certainly had seen it very much like that, even after the first episode I saw Jack/Ianto and thought "OK there's the UST". Now this may well be down to acting, rather than the intent or TPTB, I'm not sure what they intended. I think the way I see it now, having read a million metas and been in fandom, would be that Jack and Gwen are like those things that happen in workplaces to a lot of us, you fancy someone, they fancy you, but nothing will happen, because it's fun and flirty, but maybe you are both committed, or it will never go further. Jack/Ianto I see as more equal partners. I think fans make Ianto insecure and woobie sometimes, but I don't think he is.
My feeling is that if I were the writers, you don't want to end up focusing on any romance, that isn't what the show is about, despite us fans obsessing, the show would lose viewers straight away if it became a soap. It's the Moonlighting syndrome, shows know to avoid it. So you keep your relationships in the background, tell us J/i is happening offscreen, but rarely show it onscreen. I think Gwen can be more "I love you darling" with Rhys because he's her partner outside of the team, if he was in the team I think it would annoy people more.
I suppose that's the beauty of differing opinions. I mean I don't see this relationship that's happening pre-Cyberwoman between the two of them, but apparently a lot of other people do. But to be honest I don't think I'm being unfair to the show. For me it's more that they have some nice, occasional moments, but a pretty weak overall arc and I have to admit the rewatch hasn't really changed my opinion on that.
It's funny that you bring up Adam because there's a scene in that episode that really speaks to my feelings about the way this relationship is written, but I'll live that for that episode.
I also think the show does pretty explicitly suggest that Ianto is insecure about his relationship with Jack so while I think fandom can go overboard with it, like having him cry everytime Jack says something mean to him or someone so much as looks at him funny, I don't think it's either/or. He can be both badass, which he is shown to be in this episode and insecure,which I think he's also shown to be, about certain things.
I don't think the relationship or relationships, and I'm not just talking about romantic relationships, need to be presented front and centre for the audience to get a great sense of them. But I think there's only so far you can go if you're goal seems to be to be as vague as humanly possible.
I think Gwen is a different issue.She's not only a main, if not the main character, but so much of the show's identity for her is wrapped up in her 'ordinary life' and that life is represented by her relationship with Rhys.Vagueness wouldn't exactly allow the audience to get a sense of that, but I think even if he were on the team or say they gone ahead and hooked her up with Jack I still don't think they would be especially vague about it because even if they don't always show it I think the writers understand that it's a lot easier to engage with a character or relationship whatever its permutation if it's actually enacted/developed on-screen once in a while and not just implied off-screen.
Mostly I agree with Marii Chan. As a whole I think the show has a tendency to start something and then have it just fizzle out without any real explanation or create these this epic,soul detroying moments for their characters and then just flake out on the aftermath like it was no big thing or have the characters acting in a certain way without providing much context for why.Personally I appreciate shows when they do think about that stuff more particularly when it's also made clear that certain characters/ relationships aren't even going to be around that long since it's not as if they'll be much likelihood or inclination to revisit them later on.
I just don't think Ianto is insecure, unless you are counting CoE, and that's just bizarre. I kind of wasn't counting that because this is an S1 and 2 comm, and I think in those 2 series he just isn't. In fact he seems assertive and confident around Jack, and it's Jack who is a bit uncertain, like in the asking for a date scene. I tend to think CoE goes a bit awry with TPTB seeing something very different to the fans, and that was down to RTD IMO, but not really a subject for this comm. In terms of S2 I'd see it as Ianto being very much in control, and really sexually confident and assertive.
It does feel like they planned on Ianto, Tosh and Owen being gone by the end of series 2, then changed their mind. If that is the case, then this episode foreshadows that a lot, by separating Jack and Gwen from the others.
I know people who care about these things felt Catherine Treganna was very Jack/Gwen, probably for the reasons you say, but I wonder if RTD had a hand in the script as well, because he did tend to rewrite bits and add bits, and probably wouldn't have done it to Chris Chibnall but more likely to with her. Also the scripts for the undead Ianto were very romantic and soppy so I think the intention at this point was for Jack and Ianto to be more couply, that was changed when they decided to make Owen undead instead.
Bloody Hell, overthinking! it's geek fun though.
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Yeah I do wonder how much would have changed for the Ianto as a zombie storyline, not from the episodes themselves, but the ones before them just because so many of the episodes seem so self-contained and little of what happens in one tends to pass on to the other and the arcs aren't always that great. So I can sort of see them writing this episode as is, but then later writing episodes that contradict that.
I'm not sure about planning to get rid of Ianto, Tosh and Owen by the end of s2 though. They probably planned to get rid of someone, Ianto most likely since he was always first up. I kind of feel that once they decided to get rid of Owen instead they threw Tosh in for good measure, although maybe she was always for the chopping block, and that they wrote COE as a way to wrap up the show. Not that Ianto would have survived even if they hadn't, but that's the vibe I get.
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Good point about the Jack/Gwen ending at SB. It really did, although I'm not sure that some fans would agree, I mean I don't take Jack seriously in Adrift, but I'm sure the J/G fans say he was just using Ianto who is only a convenient shag and he invited Gwen in because that's what he really wanted etc etc. To be honest I don't think it's ever a really big deal, but it's a matter of perspective!
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Yes I think it's vague, which is OK if it's deliberate with an over arching plan somewhere. I don't think Moffat is any better though. It all ends up being deus ex machina. To be honest it just shows how difficult this sort of writing is. I can't think of any examples where the writing is watertight, without plot holes or compromises. Except maybe one off films, but once you spread the story out it is tough.
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Re Gray, I thought you meant Jack didn't call him by name, not the other way around! Yes i get what you mean, they could have his brother calling him his real name, but then I suppose it can be confusing.
I wouldn't compare MD, but that's just my opinion, I think it's a level of fail that is incomparable to the previous three series when it comes to writing. I really don't want them to do any more of it, I would find it so depressing. If they want to bring TW back to Cardiff and do something with it, without that awful Rex person, then maybe. I just can't see it happening.
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I think the bigger weakness is probably emphasis. Jack/ Gwen and Rhys/Gwen even Jack/Gwen/Rhys get alot of attention, but Jack/Ianto on the otherhand mostly happen off-screen so you're having to interpret a lot from a very little. I mean Jack/Ianto work together so it makes sense there'd be less sentimentality or emotion shown between them on the job and I kind of like the idea that when they're working the job comes first. But then again it's not as if we're really privy to their more private moments except when innuendo is involved so if there is supposed to be more depth to their relationship than that we're never exactly made privy to it. of course I don't think JB's acting helps either. I'm not his biggest fan anyway, but he seems pretty unsubtle even for him in his episode. So maybe we're supposed to read conflict and fear as well as professionalism in those scenes and not just shouting and annoyance. Not that I mind the innuendo, but if later on you're going to have Jack willing to sacrifice the world for him it would be nice to get more of a sense why.
I also don't see Ianto as a character written to have much of a point of view maybe because he's so minor (or motivation for that matter) even in s2 which is probably great for fanfiction because you can kind of create your own, but probably less satisfying viewing wise.
He mostly comes off as bemused in those scenes at the end of Meat and before s3 and the radioplays I'd just assumed he was fine with it all since he seemed happy enough. But since so much is made about him being insecure about his place and meaning to Jack it's hard for me to buy there wouldn't be some sort of emotional fall out on his part. It doesn't really make much sense to me otherwise.
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I think that J/I is up front, but they are blokes and retain some sort of professionalism, although of course we do see them having sex in a work setting so I guess that's a bit unboundaried! Still i wouldn't agree with that argument at all. I also don't think there is a romance between Jack and Gwen. Not at all. What I meant was that some people didn't see it, and they were people who weren't in fandom, so had no idea that there were all these people out there actually caring about it and seeing it big time as it were. When I talked about TW with friends (none who are at all fannish, they just liked it) They would make comments like "I like that bloke in the suits, he's lovely, you know,Capt Jack's boyfriend" and "I like her, the shouty Welsh policewoman, she wants Jack, but can't have him.." So I think it can be interpreted without seeing any sort of actual romance.
I saw series 1 without looking at fandom because I didn't become that invested in it until series 2 started, and I certainly had seen it very much like that, even after the first episode I saw Jack/Ianto and thought "OK there's the UST". Now this may well be down to acting, rather than the intent or TPTB, I'm not sure what they intended. I think the way I see it now, having read a million metas and been in fandom, would be that Jack and Gwen are like those things that happen in workplaces to a lot of us, you fancy someone, they fancy you, but nothing will happen, because it's fun and flirty, but maybe you are both committed, or it will never go further. Jack/Ianto I see as more equal partners. I think fans make Ianto insecure and woobie sometimes, but I don't think he is.
My feeling is that if I were the writers, you don't want to end up focusing on any romance, that isn't what the show is about, despite us fans obsessing, the show would lose viewers straight away if it became a soap. It's the Moonlighting syndrome, shows know to avoid it. So you keep your relationships in the background, tell us J/i is happening offscreen, but rarely show it onscreen. I think Gwen can be more "I love you darling" with Rhys because he's her partner outside of the team, if he was in the team I think it would annoy people more.
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It's funny that you bring up Adam because there's a scene in that episode that really speaks to my feelings about the way this relationship is written, but I'll live that for that episode.
I also think the show does pretty explicitly suggest that Ianto is insecure about his relationship with Jack so while I think fandom can go overboard with it, like having him cry everytime Jack says something mean to him or someone so much as looks at him funny, I don't think it's either/or. He can be both badass, which he is shown to be in this episode and insecure,which I think he's also shown to be, about certain things.
I don't think the relationship or relationships, and I'm not just talking about romantic relationships, need to be presented front and centre for the audience to get a great sense of them. But I think there's only so far you can go if you're goal seems to be to be as vague as humanly possible.
I think Gwen is a different issue.She's not only a main, if not the main character, but so much of the show's identity for her is wrapped up in her 'ordinary life' and that life is represented by her relationship with Rhys.Vagueness wouldn't exactly allow the audience to get a sense of that, but I think even if he were on the team or say they gone ahead and hooked her up with Jack I still don't think they would be especially vague about it because even if they don't always show it I think the writers understand that it's a lot easier to engage with a character or relationship whatever its permutation if it's actually enacted/developed on-screen once in a while and not just implied off-screen.
Mostly I agree with Marii Chan. As a whole I think the show has a tendency to start something and then have it just fizzle out without any real explanation or create these this epic,soul detroying moments for their characters and then just flake out on the aftermath like it was no big thing or have the characters acting in a certain way without providing much context for why.Personally I appreciate shows when they do think about that stuff more particularly when it's also made clear that certain characters/ relationships aren't even going to be around that long since it's not as if they'll be much likelihood or inclination to revisit them later on.
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