His Last Vow Discussion post

Jan 12, 2014 18:43

a post for discussions of episode three and the third season in general.

Good luck, everybody!

spoilers, discussion post, tv: sherlock bbc season 3, general discussion, fangirling

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Comments 48

sunnyringo January 13 2014, 00:09:06 UTC
Ugh. That was easily the worst episode ever. This series has been a complete bust: 0/3.

I would happily sell my soul to Satan if it would get me a Moriarty-less version of this show. I can't even put into words how much I hate the character and Andrew Scott's performance. I thought the only good thing to come out of The Reichenbach Fall would be the riddance of Moriarty. Welp.

I did like Magnusson. I guess that's something?

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clare_nce January 13 2014, 19:41:57 UTC
Although I wouldn't go as far as selling my soul I also don't like Moriaty and I really don't like the possibility of him coming back.

I'm really hoping that it's someone else using his idenity.

I also liked Magnusson. He was genuinely nasty.

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ledasdaughter January 14 2014, 19:04:18 UTC
aww, I'm sorry you hated it so much. I actually find this season much better than season 2.

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xgraciela January 13 2014, 13:00:50 UTC
Okay, this will be longer, so bear with me, please. Here there be praise, but here will be issues addressed as well.

First of all, this was the one episode of the three actually quite in tone with season 1 and 2. I liked that. I was not bored for a single minute (doesn't mean I didn't headpalm multiple times) and it felt like I got my old Sherlock back...at least in parts (mind my wording here)

Since I'm unable to be much constructive in full scale reviews, I'll just do bulletpoints and in the end some conclusions. I hope it's enough to get my opinions through.

STUFF I LOVED (in no speciffic order):

- The. Dying. Scene. OMG that was PERFECT(only one problem I have here, but I'll get to that later)

- Wiggins <3 ( ... )

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xgraciela January 13 2014, 13:01:06 UTC
STUFF I DISLIKED OR HATED:

- Mary (rest assured, this has nothing to do with Amanda!) I've waited whole season to be able to say this, to be able to get the full picture, so here I am now.

- I also kind of hated John in this (suprisingly, as he used to be my fav character). Mainly for forgiving her. Not her past, that I can understand, but what she did to Sherlock (I'll get to this later, because it's too long for a single bullet point)

- for all the glorious H/C we didn't even get one single scene with John in Sherlock's hospital room. Why?

- Sherlock is dangerously willing to do anything for John (including murder, including surviving a clinical death), but gets a handshake in return? It starts to feel like very unhealthy, one-sided, not-intentionally-but-still-abusive relationship to me. Do. Not. Like ( ... )

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sunnyringo January 13 2014, 17:12:12 UTC
- Sherlock not being among John's pressure points? So is this supposed to mean that you can't hurt John Watson via Sherlock?

I guess I read the "pressure points" completely differently to most people, but I didn't think that was how that worked at all. John's status to Magnusson was "Unimportant". He had no reason to care about or hurt John at all except as a way of hurting Sherlock. And, likewise, he only cared about hurting/controlling Sherlock in relation to Mycroft. Sherlock's never going to be the thing he uses against John, he has nothing to gain from it. Sherlock's higher up the chain of importance than John is. He said himself, he's a businessman not a villain. He's not hurting people just to hurt people. He has something to gain from hurting the people he does. Mycroft isn't one of Sherlock's pressure points for the same reason.

Sherlock is dangerously willing to do anything for John (including murder, including surviving a clinical death), but gets a handshake in return? It starts to feel like very unhealthy, one- ( ... )

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xgraciela January 13 2014, 17:32:50 UTC
Re: pressure point.

I like your thoughts! I'll be definitely thinking about this more!

Still when Magnussen was so good at reading people and accumulating the information. How could John's sister be more of a pressure point to John than Sherlock was. And why was she even mentioned here on the lict when Magnussen clearly wasn't going to use her .

Re: abusive relationship.

Oh, I totally agree with this. I never liked how Sherlock acted towards John in Hounds and later on! It's not good no matter what side is the abused one.

What do you mean that ultimately, it wasn't different this time. ? Sherlock did the good thing this time around, he did everything to save Mary and John's future, right? He wasn't jerk.

So instead they switched places now, because apparently instead of setting an example, John just assumes the role of the jerk. (not literally, but you get my point)

But thanks very much for your opinions! I'd love to hear more!

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clare_nce January 13 2014, 20:01:49 UTC
I also have mixed feeling about the ep ( ... )

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ledasdaughter January 13 2014, 21:25:20 UTC
I actually really appreciate Sherlock's failure in this, but that is because it's so very canonical. I really like that he's appalled and his dislike makes it impossible for him to think this through, just like in canon. I would have loved for Mary to get the chance to kill Magnussen, but essentially I loved how very close to the text this episode was.

I'm not sure yet what to think of Sherlock as a killer, cause he doesn't kill anyone in the books (though we don't know about the hiatus)

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clare_nce January 14 2014, 12:13:59 UTC
II agree that it's good to have Sherlock fail sometimes, and he doesn't do well against Milverton in canon true. My issues is more that his failure didn't seem a big contrast to everything else that is going on. He seemed to be failing all over the place.

It's possible the writers wanted to do a Sherlock fails ep. But that only works if it's heavily contrasted with Sherlock succeeds. Because there are so few eps and he didn't shine SIB either (he messed up so badly and Irene Adler was made such an unpleasant character that he had to win that one (rather than a canonical loss) at the last minute or the consequences would have been more severe than the writers wanted) it makes him too fallible.

I agree over the murder - it's a odd departure but I thik the writers were thinking it shows how much he was prepared to do for John. However, having a plan B - rather than just shutting down - would have been more in character.

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ledasdaughter January 14 2014, 22:53:13 UTC
I think the entire failure thing will lead to a re-start of Sherlock. He experienced torture and who knows what while he was away and now he has to handle the fact that people actually like him...and that's blowing his mind. so he's losing his feet, and the fall is much more important this time, because once he emerges from it, he will be 'grown up'. at least that is my theory. reichenbach was a fall which tested everyone but Sherlock, who knew what he was doing. Now everyone believes in him again and yet he can't believe in himself. an existential crisis which will eventually lead to him becoming a version of himself who is more aware of emotions and yet back in control. that is overall why I really liked this season and why I guess, even if the writing was occasionally lazy and left holes, the character development and Sherlock#s personal failure are so important.

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ledasdaughter January 13 2014, 21:32:18 UTC
it's funny, because I have a lot of things to complain about, and yet I find it one of the est episodes so far. The pace was really good and close to how the firstseason is structurd and I think psychologically it is thought through extremely well. Even the unhealthy relationship that Holmes and Watson also have in the canon, though not quite as extreme, is explained really well with the active if subconscious need for John to be around exciting people. I love that they brought Mary to that level because in the books she is so supportive of what John is doing and I love pastiches in which Mary is sulky because John and Sherlock get to solve crimes and then goes off to investigate hersel (Molly Carr's novels). I love the fact that John takes responsibility and realises that Mycroft was right all along. He needs the rush, just as sherlock said. John missed it, and now we have a perfect start into a fourth season which can become similar to the granada series, as Sherlock has finally reached the emotional level that Brett's Holmes has ( ... )

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xgraciela January 14 2014, 01:25:11 UTC
This is interesting as you say that we may finally (?) reach Granada series. I personally never wanted Granada series level from Sherlock. Because Sherlock was everything that I missed in Granada (I never liked those that much...not sure why...certainly not because of Brett ;) Maybe because I always imagined Holmes more like 25-35-ish year old young, modern, genius of man while reading the books (even if I know that is not canonicaly correct). He never grew older in my eyes ( ... )

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ledasdaughter January 14 2014, 07:09:31 UTC
why is Mary's past screwed? She is an American CIA agent who tried to get out and managed and actually found love and is trying to protect that. So when she shoots Sherlock, even, she is doing to to protect herself and John. I am still not sure about that entire scene, as I would have liked it for her to be the killer of Magnussen, and it would have made much more sense in the way that she has killed before and Sherlock hasn't, but I guess Moffat didn't think this one through ( ... )

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xgraciela January 14 2014, 10:12:17 UTC
I'm not sure. She just rubs me the wrong way, you know? I waited for the whole season to be over to judge her. She's just overly complicated now and not really likeable to me at all. In John's spot, I'd never be able to trust her again. Both that she lied to him and then proceeded to sweep Sherlock of (there were other ways out of the situation as many people pointed out) even though still claiming that she loves him...wtf? From when is shooting someone in the chest a prove of love? For Moffat it apparently is. I think that Sherlock, confused idiot as he is in this whole episode, is too soft on her becuse he's scared that if he went against Mary, John might abandon him (and that is probably true). So he makes the poor exuses (she shot me in the chest, not head, yeah awesome, what a kindness!) to make it easier for John to forgive her ( ... )

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clare_nce January 16 2014, 08:36:12 UTC
Found this review interesting. The writer raises some of the issues I had with the 3rd season but dislikes the 3rd ep much more than I do.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/kate-rose/sherlock-season-three-review_b_4594346.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

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ledasdaughter January 16 2014, 09:44:25 UTC
thanks for the link!

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ledasdaughter January 16 2014, 10:04:45 UTC
she doesn't seem to have understood, though, that the secret Sherlock deduced in The Sign of Three was the confidentiality contract they had signed to never tell anyone that they had worked for Sholto... bitching at plot holes that are actually really good plot? hmm.

I also disagree with her view on the Christmas scene (I think Mycroft brought his computer to allow Sherlock to enter Magnussen's house, but both didn't know that Magnussen is a fricking genius who also uses a mind palace) and Magnussen's character in general is quite terrifying enough (Sherlock knows the file; and eventually knows what he could discover about Mary) to be called the worst man in London.

hmm, might have to write a comment on her article :p I agree to some extent though. As I said, to me this season was important to establish a baseline for what's to come. to completely fall of Sherlock so he can rise again.

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clare_nce January 16 2014, 14:17:14 UTC
You're quite right she missed it but to be fair it wasn't mentioned clearly. It was odd as 'Sherlock' is usually very good at making the deductions clear. I missed it the first time I saw it. Mind you I found that one odd that he was struggling to find Sholto as the victim. If you think there's going to be a murder I would choose the person who had had death threats as my first choice.

It's odd about the laptop. Mycroft could only have it with him if he's incompetent or in on the idea (at least secretly) I don't think Mycroft is incompetent so I have to think he took it on purpose. But then Sherlock didn't seem to realise that (as he sees the need to drug everyone) and that's odder.

I understand how you are seeing this season but that explanation doesn't work for me and I'm not alone. If that was the aim of the season then I think they could have done it better and got me onboard. You can never please everyone but this season seems to have weaker writing and ideas than we are used to from Sherlock.

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