why is Mary's past screwed? She is an American CIA agent who tried to get out and managed and actually found love and is trying to protect that. So when she shoots Sherlock, even, she is doing to to protect herself and John. I am still not sure about that entire scene, as I would have liked it for her to be the killer of Magnussen, and it would have made much more sense in the way that she has killed before and Sherlock hasn't, but I guess Moffat didn't think this one through. I'm not sure she did anything to their friendship though. it's important for John to have moved on after Sherlock disappeared, and even though they are back together and solving cases, it's bound to be different now, in any case... just as it is in canon, where the breaks in between seeing each other are much longer than was implied in this series, and if you think of Guy Ritchie, Holmes is much worse off than Sherlock after John marries Mary :p
And I simply adore mary for being a complex badass character who is actually supporting the friendship. It could have gone into a very different direction, but she really tried; but she also needed Sherlock in a way, which is what he understands when he offers to take her case, though she was smart enough to almost get there if Sherlock hadn't miscalculated and barged in...which is also sort of canonical. Again, why she shoots him only makes sense in the way that she will protect the ones she loves, and in that case John is the only one that matters...you can see it on her face when Sherlock tricks her with the supposed dummy and it's John. Her entire life slips out from underneath her feet.
I'm not sure. She just rubs me the wrong way, you know? I waited for the whole season to be over to judge her. She's just overly complicated now and not really likeable to me at all. In John's spot, I'd never be able to trust her again. Both that she lied to him and then proceeded to sweep Sherlock of (there were other ways out of the situation as many people pointed out) even though still claiming that she loves him...wtf? From when is shooting someone in the chest a prove of love? For Moffat it apparently is. I think that Sherlock, confused idiot as he is in this whole episode, is too soft on her becuse he's scared that if he went against Mary, John might abandon him (and that is probably true). So he makes the poor exuses (she shot me in the chest, not head, yeah awesome, what a kindness!) to make it easier for John to forgive her.
Because Sherlock knows that if he's the reason that Mary goes away, he would be blamed somehow. And he desperately tries to avoid that. So desperately that he throws away everything dear to him (including his life) just for the odd couple to be happy. I hate that John forgave her and I hate that Sherlock allowed it because he felt it necessary to keep John in his life or at least to keep himself in John's fond memories (kid names, etc).
That's what I don't like about her. The shooting was very selfish, not heroic - in contrast of everything Sherlock did in that episode to keep her - ergo John - safe.
I actually liked the idea of John being drawn to dangerous people, it's a nice darker side of him and it should be more explored, but in my opinion, Mary shouldn't have been forgiven if they made her do what she did (no matter how long it took John to forgive her).
If I was in John's place - killing my best friend (she did kill him, because if she wanted to just incapacitate him, why not shoot in the leg or shoulder?) for no apparent reason - please don't tell me that she was protecting John like that, becuase that's just too wrong. In her head maybe, but seriously? I'd not accept her back into my life. No.
As for her lobbing for S/J friendship...it's a bit overdone, imo. They were so scared because they knew that once they separate S and J the show is over. Yet, the urge to bring Mary on was apparently stronger (no idea why) so they tried to make her as likeable as possible to appease us. But only to throw that out in the finale.
I actually like Ritchie's Mary much more. And I feel Holmes/Watson dynamic much less disrupted with her. Yet she is still a badass as well. Just not shooting people in cold blood and lying about her whole existence. What's so badass about that?
Doyle was first to realize very soon that having Mary in the stories serves nothing really, and got rid of her. I wonder when they will find out about this and finally do the same. Sherlock Holmes stories never needed women (Irene, Mary, whoever) to work. The appeal is the undying male friendship and love and appreciation. And it goes both ways. Not just from Watson to Holmes. If you disrupt that, you can never succeed. It's only matter of time. Because as of now, John apparently prefers and chooses Mary over Sherlock. It's human, but how can you have them happily run around and solve crimes together as before? The dynamics are just broken for me. And Sherlock looks like kicked puppy 80% of the time, thinking he deserves it probably.
Why couldn't they have the balls to rather write strong and interesting crime stories (like Doyle) and leave Mary out of this reincarnation completely?
It might have been interesting to explore it in S3, but IMO she should have been dead or otherwise gone by now already. She's overstayed her welcome.
Because don't ever make me start about the baby! How is that suppsed to work? I worry about S4, because if the series will become a kid!fic, I swear I'm quitting for good.
This comment is already pretty long and I've only barely scratched the surface of what feels wrong. *shrugs* I'm not trying to impose my opinions upon you or someone else, I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't work for me while it might work for others. After discussing this all over the internet yesterday, I was happy to find out that my opinion is not so rare. That's enough for me.
I honestly I do not get why you dislike her. I think you overinterpret the relationship and power relation between Sherlock and Mary. She doesn't seperate them at all. John and Sherlock are separated because Sherlock fell off a roof. You cannot believe that Mary is the reason why John isn't all up there again with Sherlock. The emotional process and character development of John is thankfully written well enough to explain that. Think of the look he has when he finds his chair back in the apartment; on the one hand he trusts Sherlock, and comes with him to trick Mary, but on the other hand he doesn't throw everything in the wind and moves back in, because he is rightfully not happy. He misses Sherlock, but memories of Sherlock are now mingled with the war; meaning they are traumatic and reaffirming to him at the same time. It has nothing to do with Mary, she doesn't even feature. So I don't see her coming between John and Sherlock at all. The opposite, in fact. She is the reason why the two are even talking with each other. And I would argue that Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes is way more broken and lost by the marriage than BBC's Sherlock.
In general, I don't know how you would handle a situation like this, but I know that whenever I read a book or watch a film about secret agents and the sacrifices they make in their private lives for their job, I feel terrible for those individuals. I can understand Mary's lying 100%. She cannot be safe by giving herself up to anyone and she's good enough to even fool Sherlock, who trusts her by proxy (we talked extensively about Sherlock protective umbrella in the podcast after episode two).
That she shot Sherlock can be read as a selfish action; but I cannot be upset about it, since she is truly sorry about it and thankfully her character is complex enough to know what she did to protect herself and her new life, and yet to trust Sherlock with her secret. I really like the dynamic between Sherlock and Mary, because he tricks her into telling him the truth, and she says that John can't know, because she has spent the last few years of her life running away from her old life, and if John knew, she feels that she would lose everything she managed to build for herself those last years. It does mean that she is 100% in love with John and that the marriage is real and no trick and that the baby is a baby that came about because they are in love with each other and that explains the panic in ep. 2. Because it roots her to the present, it binds her to John in a way that she cannot run away from, and that makes the dynamic extremely interesting. In a lovely way they managed to write an episode which I find very similar to John le Carré Smiley-series, which in turn is based on Sherlock Holmes.
I also don't think what you call lobbying is the right word. In any adaptation, as well as the canon story, Mary supports the friendship between John and Sherlock. I don't understand why people were worried at all; I, for one, am happy that they gave her such an active part in getting the two back together, because she is extremely empathetic and can read emotions like Sherlock reads clues. I really just love how they have written her.
And one last remark, Mary is alive for 1/3 of the Sherlock Holmes stories (John Watson is married to her over ten years), so I do hope she sticks around for a while longer.
I'm sorry, I probably can't explain better, I guess. I just don't like her for reasons, that in my head are strong enough. Even if I do try and see your points, I'd be more happy with her gone (or never introduced). We'll have to agree to disargee. It's all fine.
I love the amount of meta and discussion on this all over the webz. Makes my head almost explode but it's great.
Some things I have as reactions to your thoughts:
John and Sherlock are separated because Sherlock fell off a roof.
Okay, so "I forgive you." "You are one of the two most important people in my life" "Of course you are my best friend." "We will be still solving crimes." "Nothing's gonna change." "*hugs*"....none of these happened then? Because I took these bits as John firmly re-attaching himself to Sherlock over the course of TEH and TSOT.
At least a year /if not more) has gone between TEH and HLV, so I think they are not really supposed to be separated anymore, are they? Because they are back, just like in canon.
he doesn't throw everything in the wind and moves back in, because he is rightfully not happy.
He doesn't throw everything in the wind and moves back in, because he is married. And obviously still in love. With both of them.
He misses Sherlock, but memories of Sherlock are now mingled with the war; meaning they are traumatic
Interesting. I took the dreams as John missing the action he got with Sherlock, because he kind of hates his ordinary married domestic life now (so Mary actually features a lot in this). That's why the nightmares are back. Just like when he came back from war and hated the pedestrian normal life.
She is the reason why the two are even talking with each other.
Sorry, unrelevant for me. John would totally see Sherlock back sooner or later even without her cheering.
Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes is way more broken and lost by the marriage than BBC's Sherlock.
Interesting again. As I see our Sherlock VERY broken, but kind of accepting it because he'd do anything to make John happy.
I can understand Mary's lying 100%
Me too. Absolutely. I don't care that much about her past. But I don't understand why she killed Sherlock (I'm repeating myself with this, sorry, I just need it in there again). And I don't understand John being okay with this. Because understanding and actually tolerating are different things.
and yet to trust Sherlock with her secret
Thats exactly what she should have done. Instead of using the gun. He even instantly offered to help her, he didn't care about her dark past.
I really like the dynamic between Sherlock and Mary
I'm not sure how much of the dynamic is genuie, tbh, because Sherlock allows her a lot. He deliberatelly overlooks the clues that she has secrets. He's tolerating her. He's not fighting her. In my eyes he does this because if he went against her from the beginning, that would mean going against John and he couldn't afford that in TEH where their relationship was in already very wounded.
Mary is alive for 1/3 of the Sherlock Holmes stories
Then again, she also was already dead by the time Holmes came back from hiatus. Also, being alive in the stories is the only thing she did in most of them. She didn't mingle. I feel her overused in S3.
Thanks for bringing this discussion on! As I said, I really like this.
Okay, so "I forgive you." "You are one of the two most important people in my life" "Of course you are my best friend." "We will be still solving crimes." "Nothing's gonna change." "*hugs*"....none of these happened then? Because I took these bits as John firmly re-attaching himself to Sherlock over the course of TEH and TSOT.
oh, it did happen and John meant it, and yet, in no way could it not have left traces. This is the psychology behind things which I missed so much in season 2 which was much less plausible because of not working things out. john has PTSD, don#t forget that. He's lost his best friends in the war. Sherlock isn't the only one who grieved his dog, though john seems to have a different approach to dealing with it...repressing it rather than simply not forming any emotional bond of relationship with anyone ever like Sherlock. That is why John has nightmares. the nightmare scene showed his subconsciusness, his need to go out there, because he is addicted, and he's also terrified. Psychologically it is very conclusive. And he has grieved Sherlock and he has found love with Mary and he has moved on. To have grieved over someone and then have them return means that you have seperated yourself from them in many ways, and even if Sherlock is still john's best friend, he is necessarily detached from him in some ways which show in this series. And whether it be Mary or another friend or a pet or a fulfilling job, any of those things would have helped him to move on, and the reaction would have been the same. So mary as a person does not really feature in that equation, but she does feature as someone who helped John move on. Sherlock still is and will (canonically) always be John's best friend. but John has a life outside of Sherlock, and Sherlock has very painfully learned this season that he doesn't really have a life outside of John...and they both have to readjust their lives to end up where season 4 will take them...in a canonical universe.
And they do live apart, even if Mary chooses Baker Street to hang out to Sherlock doesn't feel left out. But essentially John only moved back in with Sherlock after Mary's shooting of Sherlock, which doesn't mean that he doesn't have to work through the experience of getting back in touch with his former self while having changed profoundly...as has Sherlock. (Though I am sad that we didn't get to see those months, because they would have been super interesting and I am waiting for good fic to fill that gap)
And I see that your headcanon is interfereing here...John is, in this series, not in love with Sherlock. You can very easily read Sherlock as being in love with John, but it's quite obvious that John isn't. (And Sherlock's need for John, or what you can read as love, is mostly based on the fact that John has become his whole life, so whether romantically or in terms of dependance doesn't really matter as he doesn't act upon either apart from trying to make sure that John is safe). but if you think that way about the series it explains a lot why you are upset by some things which I simply cannot understand.
John does throw things in the wind a bit, btw, by moving out. BUT, he understands why Mary has done it, which is to protect him, and it would be a different story if John hadn't been in a similar position when he simply panicked and reacted and shot the cabbie, because sherlock was in danger...and this is why the entire 'you like psychopaths' episode makes a lot of sense...doesn't mean he can accept that easily, because he needs months to come to terms with it, but he accepts it, and he decides to trust Mary...and not only because Sherlock trusts her despite everything.
(continued in a second comment cause long as hale :p)
Now there's the question if it's really psychology and if it's intentional from their side or if Moffat is just a sloppy character writer...Because I'd be inclined to believe the second :p
John only moved back in with Sherlock after Mary's shooting of Sherlock,
Evidence please? Because I must have missed this. Did he actually move back?
You can very easily read Sherlock as being in love with John, but it's quite obvious that John isn't.
Oookay. Something's wrong with me then, because I've seen John in love with him since SiP. And of course I don't mean love-LOVE, but kind of instant, and then best-friend-love, platonic, and also need. And it was there all the time. The first time I've seen it disappear is actually HLV. That can't be just coincidence and me imagining things.
Though I guess I see your point.
it would be a different story if John hadn't been in a similar position when he simply panicked and reacted and shot the cabbie, because sherlock was in danger
But then again, the cabbie was the bad guy and not his wife's best friend who at the moment did nothing wrong.
And yes, Sherlock is broken, but not because of Mary and John, but because of his personal change and quite possibly because of what happened to him during the hiatus, since he stops functioning after he returns, and that dysfunction goes further than just the fact that he understands he feels obligated to protect more people now. He ignores his deduction about Mary, because Mary and John are together, so he looks at the good things and decides that he will protect her (I wouldn't say he likes her, cause I am not sure he's reached that level of feeling fondness for anyone but John and Mrs Hudson and his family). So he's broken, yes, but John is still the only one who makes him work, but as we also learned, John doesn't necessarily have to be there with him...he was with him in his head for two years while Sherlock was touring the world and only when John didn't welcome him back with open arms Sherlock was told off by his mind palace version of John. But that John hasn't disappeared and is reestablished in his mental place quite firmly; though I am still wondering about the cardiac arrest scene, because he didn't feature in it and that is intrieguing (sp?).
because he kind of hates his ordinary married domestic life now
wow, I do not see it like this AT ALL. he doesn't hatehis life, but he is missing the action, which is why he jumps at the chance to find the neighbour's boy. But it's the first thing we learn about John watson. it's the first thing of the series overall...the fact that John is in fact haunted by the war...He cries. So when Mycroft tells him he misses it, it's only partly true. Fact is, he has seen a lot of death and he has lost his best friends (presumably), or at least his comrades, and there is nothing exciting about this. So for me, the nightmare was a clear indicator that Sherlock has become part of his trauma now and that he still has to work this out. When he is with Sherlock, he feels the rush and he can ignore the dark side of things, just as Sherlock can ignore his addiction (which was introduced as a mirror image of John's nightmares I guess, because even tho it is for a case, Sherlock is clearly also trying to work through something by taking drugs --> leading to Molly slapping him.) In the stories Sherlock uses drugs to relax his mind so he doesn't go crazy...and it's updated in a nice way to fit the pattern of him needing the rush, quite literally. And the question is raised whether Sherlock solves cases to escape the drugs in opposition to the canonical he's taking drugs when he doesn't have cases, which fits with Lestrade's and Mycoft's worry about Sherlock.
And John, who married a former CIA agent, does understand (and eventually accept) the fact the she killed Sherlock for him (though I still doubt that he knows about the cardiac arrest, and even less about Sherlock returning because of his need to protect john), because as I mentioned above, he has done the same. He know to what lengths you will go to protect those you love. And Sherlock understanding her definitely helps him accept it, tho it does take him months...but I repeat myself :p
But essentially she shot Sherlock because when she told him she would shoot, he could have turned around and nothing bad would have happened, but he said he didn't believe her and took a step forward. In that moment, she had to shoot to protect her new found life...the only proper life she would ever have. And she knows what it all means, she knows what it would do to John if Sherlock died; she knows he could move on, because he doesn't depend on Sherlock as much as Sherlock depends on John.
And then she couldn't kill Magnussen because of Sherlock's foolishness of underestimating her because it would have meant that John would become a suspect, because he clearly wouldn't just leave the crime scene...and he was present in the building after all...so it was Sherlock who screwed up, and Mary reached the best possible solution to protect her freedom and John's in that moment.
I am still wondering about the cardiac arrest scene, because he didn't feature in it and that is intrieguing (sp?).
Yeah, this angered me as well. I have no idea where was John in this scene. Because as a doctor, and very good doctor, he should have been there in the mindpalace, helping Sherlock with the others.
Why doesn't Sherlock want/need him there?
Jesus, they are so fucked up, aren't they?
I really see the dream scene differently. *shrugs*
I loved Molly, Wiggins and the whole drug den and lab scene (+ the continuation in 221b)
Some more thoughts on the shooting..because that's seriously the whole and only turning point of this episode, of Mary, and of the whole season 3 for me:
If this is true like you say...
she had to shoot to protect her new found life...the only proper life she would ever have. And she knows what it all means, she knows what it would do to John if Sherlock died; she knows he could move on, because he doesn't depend on Sherlock as much as Sherlock depends on John.
...why doesn't she aim straight for the head then? As Sherlock pointed out later, she didn't know if he actually would, but she let him survive, even called the ambulance, etc. She actually risked John's trust much much more by allowing Sherlock to survive, because with him living, it was all bound to get out there sooner or later, hence she made it even worse for John - not only having to forgive her the lies but also for shooting his best friend. This doesn't make any sense! It only put Sherlock through pain and months in hospital.
If she rather decided in that spot to actually trust Sherlock and tell him the truth, let him help her...I might have had totally different meaning about her!
And let's not forget that then she went to Sherlock's room very soon after he woke up and actually threatened him to not tell John...wtf? It seriously bothered me a LOT that she tried this while he was in hospital, quite helpless, while she had power to harm or kill him (again). "Don't tell John" - or else what? "Or else I really will kill you for real next time"?
So maybe she did shot him into the chest instead of the head on purpose after all, because it was a win/win situation. Either it kills him straight away or at least makes him weak, and more pliable for her plans to keep the secret. Cold, calculating, villainy character. I can't help it, sorry.
ETA: "Honestly, I don’t want season 4 focusing on Mary, her past and the baby. She should never have shot Sherlock. Unforgettable. Unforgivable. Unjustified." <- these are not my actual words, I'm just citing someone from other discussion, because the person managed to express all what I feel in one sentence and not in fucking PhD which I tried, but still failed to do so properly.
Plus, I just remembered that not only was she a CIA agent, but also admitted to have done some freelance job.(!) What else is she hiding? I sense dark stuff. And I no longer have even a sliver of trust for her.
possibly, just possibly, listen to this week's podcast might lead to a change of view in some respects. I didn't record with the ladies, but the general feedback to the ep is that people liked Vow much better after having listened :)
I don't think that Mary will/can find a place in my heart, but of course I'll listen :)
I think that one good thing about Mary is that you either have to hate her or love her. So I guess that if nothing else, it makes her 3D even if not in a way I would have liked. Because as of now, I'd like her to stay the fuck away.
To my above-above comment...Please is there any evidence in the ep that John moved back in for the time between shooting and Christmas? Because I didn't catch this.
As I said, Sherlock doesn't necessarily like Mary in the way that he feels friendship towards her. What he does understand is that john is the most lovable being he has ever encountered, and he knows that Mary truly loves John right from the beginning; so he overlooks her flaws in favour of keeping John happy. And she does, she does love John, and she even loves Sherlock, though she has to choose in that moment in Magnussens office...and it seems very logical that she chooses her own life and future over Sherlock's; and in a way, Sherlock gets her back by risking her future with John by making him hear him what she has to confess...and John still chooses her, just like he chose Sherlock again after his return; but he can actually talk about it with Mary, while the man on man conversation thing is naturally much more difficult and therefore complex in a different degree.
but I like that Sherlock doesn't blame Mary for her action, because he threw himself off a roof for John (plus ten other things), so he truly gets it. I like that about their dynamic. They mirror each other, and John knows that when he says cynically that they should get married.
she also was already dead by the time Holmes came back from hiatus Yes, so that would make about 15 stories of her being present (and very supportive of John's hanging around Baker Street, though John felt quite content in his married life). That they chose to bring on Moriarty and the hiatus that early on doesn' mean they have to stick to other parts of the story. And I think she is essential for this season, because she is the one who manages to draw Sherlock into their relationship. She is the one who asks what will happen to him if John dances with her...she really wants them to work this out and she is written in a way that she managed it...especially now that she has shown to what lengths she will go to protect John and herself; Sherlock can understand and appreciate that and he appreciates that she is, in fact, sorry about shooting him; and that is why John only gets a handshake. becase he knows John is in good hands. because essentially, mary is one of the most intelligent, funny, tolerant and emotional people he has had the pleasure of getting to know; and leaving John in her capable hands means he trusts her enough to keep her secret safe from that point on.
Ohhhh. Mycroft totally knows everything! I have a little theory on him and the ending, which was born very shortly after watching HLV, so it's not extra coherent, but I still totally believe it.
Aside from the Mycroft theory I've also read a pretty good fix-it fic where John was the one to plant that video in the end and not Mycroft or someone else. The author made it work! lol.
and concerning John not caring, consider that he didn't know what happened to Sherlock; he didn't even know Mary shot him until he sat hidden from her sight and she confessed it. All he knew was that he was transported from a room which had presumably held Magnussen or another person. Neither John nor Lestrade knew.
I'm not sure she did anything to their friendship though. it's important for John to have moved on after Sherlock disappeared, and even though they are back together and solving cases, it's bound to be different now, in any case... just as it is in canon, where the breaks in between seeing each other are much longer than was implied in this series, and if you think of Guy Ritchie, Holmes is much worse off than Sherlock after John marries Mary :p
And I simply adore mary for being a complex badass character who is actually supporting the friendship. It could have gone into a very different direction, but she really tried; but she also needed Sherlock in a way, which is what he understands when he offers to take her case, though she was smart enough to almost get there if Sherlock hadn't miscalculated and barged in...which is also sort of canonical. Again, why she shoots him only makes sense in the way that she will protect the ones she loves, and in that case John is the only one that matters...you can see it on her face when Sherlock tricks her with the supposed dummy and it's John. Her entire life slips out from underneath her feet.
I simply love the development of all of this.
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Because Sherlock knows that if he's the reason that Mary goes away, he would be blamed somehow. And he desperately tries to avoid that. So desperately that he throws away everything dear to him (including his life) just for the odd couple to be happy. I hate that John forgave her and I hate that Sherlock allowed it because he felt it necessary to keep John in his life or at least to keep himself in John's fond memories (kid names, etc).
That's what I don't like about her. The shooting was very selfish, not heroic - in contrast of everything Sherlock did in that episode to keep her - ergo John - safe.
I actually liked the idea of John being drawn to dangerous people, it's a nice darker side of him and it should be more explored, but in my opinion, Mary shouldn't have been forgiven if they made her do what she did (no matter how long it took John to forgive her).
If I was in John's place - killing my best friend (she did kill him, because if she wanted to just incapacitate him, why not shoot in the leg or shoulder?) for no apparent reason - please don't tell me that she was protecting John like that, becuase that's just too wrong. In her head maybe, but seriously? I'd not accept her back into my life. No.
As for her lobbing for S/J friendship...it's a bit overdone, imo. They were so scared because they knew that once they separate S and J the show is over. Yet, the urge to bring Mary on was apparently stronger (no idea why) so they tried to make her as likeable as possible to appease us. But only to throw that out in the finale.
I actually like Ritchie's Mary much more. And I feel Holmes/Watson dynamic much less disrupted with her. Yet she is still a badass as well. Just not shooting people in cold blood and lying about her whole existence. What's so badass about that?
Doyle was first to realize very soon that having Mary in the stories serves nothing really, and got rid of her. I wonder when they will find out about this and finally do the same. Sherlock Holmes stories never needed women (Irene, Mary, whoever) to work. The appeal is the undying male friendship and love and appreciation. And it goes both ways. Not just from Watson to Holmes. If you disrupt that, you can never succeed. It's only matter of time. Because as of now, John apparently prefers and chooses Mary over Sherlock. It's human, but how can you have them happily run around and solve crimes together as before? The dynamics are just broken for me. And Sherlock looks like kicked puppy 80% of the time, thinking he deserves it probably.
Why couldn't they have the balls to rather write strong and interesting crime stories (like Doyle) and leave Mary out of this reincarnation completely?
It might have been interesting to explore it in S3, but IMO she should have been dead or otherwise gone by now already. She's overstayed her welcome.
Because don't ever make me start about the baby! How is that suppsed to work? I worry about S4, because if the series will become a kid!fic, I swear I'm quitting for good.
This comment is already pretty long and I've only barely scratched the surface of what feels wrong. *shrugs* I'm not trying to impose my opinions upon you or someone else, I'm just trying to explain why it doesn't work for me while it might work for others. After discussing this all over the internet yesterday, I was happy to find out that my opinion is not so rare. That's enough for me.
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He misses Sherlock, but memories of Sherlock are now mingled with the war; meaning they are traumatic and reaffirming to him at the same time. It has nothing to do with Mary, she doesn't even feature. So I don't see her coming between John and Sherlock at all. The opposite, in fact. She is the reason why the two are even talking with each other. And I would argue that Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes is way more broken and lost by the marriage than BBC's Sherlock.
In general, I don't know how you would handle a situation like this, but I know that whenever I read a book or watch a film about secret agents and the sacrifices they make in their private lives for their job, I feel terrible for those individuals. I can understand Mary's lying 100%. She cannot be safe by giving herself up to anyone and she's good enough to even fool Sherlock, who trusts her by proxy (we talked extensively about Sherlock protective umbrella in the podcast after episode two).
That she shot Sherlock can be read as a selfish action; but I cannot be upset about it, since she is truly sorry about it and thankfully her character is complex enough to know what she did to protect herself and her new life, and yet to trust Sherlock with her secret. I really like the dynamic between Sherlock and Mary, because he tricks her into telling him the truth, and she says that John can't know, because she has spent the last few years of her life running away from her old life, and if John knew, she feels that she would lose everything she managed to build for herself those last years. It does mean that she is 100% in love with John and that the marriage is real and no trick and that the baby is a baby that came about because they are in love with each other and that explains the panic in ep. 2. Because it roots her to the present, it binds her to John in a way that she cannot run away from, and that makes the dynamic extremely interesting.
In a lovely way they managed to write an episode which I find very similar to John le Carré Smiley-series, which in turn is based on Sherlock Holmes.
I also don't think what you call lobbying is the right word. In any adaptation, as well as the canon story, Mary supports the friendship between John and Sherlock. I don't understand why people were worried at all; I, for one, am happy that they gave her such an active part in getting the two back together, because she is extremely empathetic and can read emotions like Sherlock reads clues. I really just love how they have written her.
And one last remark, Mary is alive for 1/3 of the Sherlock Holmes stories (John Watson is married to her over ten years), so I do hope she sticks around for a while longer.
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I love the amount of meta and discussion on this all over the webz. Makes my head almost explode but it's great.
Some things I have as reactions to your thoughts:
John and Sherlock are separated because Sherlock fell off a roof.
Okay, so "I forgive you." "You are one of the two most important people in my life" "Of course you are my best friend." "We will be still solving crimes." "Nothing's gonna change." "*hugs*"....none of these happened then? Because I took these bits as John firmly re-attaching himself to Sherlock over the course of TEH and TSOT.
At least a year /if not more) has gone between TEH and HLV, so I think they are not really supposed to be separated anymore, are they? Because they are back, just like in canon.
he doesn't throw everything in the wind and moves back in, because he is rightfully not happy.
He doesn't throw everything in the wind and moves back in, because he is married. And obviously still in love. With both of them.
He misses Sherlock, but memories of Sherlock are now mingled with the war; meaning they are traumatic
Interesting. I took the dreams as John missing the action he got with Sherlock, because he kind of hates his ordinary married domestic life now (so Mary actually features a lot in this). That's why the nightmares are back. Just like when he came back from war and hated the pedestrian normal life.
She is the reason why the two are even talking with each other.
Sorry, unrelevant for me. John would totally see Sherlock back sooner or later even without her cheering.
Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes is way more broken and lost by the marriage than BBC's Sherlock.
Interesting again. As I see our Sherlock VERY broken, but kind of accepting it because he'd do anything to make John happy.
I can understand Mary's lying 100%
Me too. Absolutely. I don't care that much about her past. But I don't understand why she killed Sherlock (I'm repeating myself with this, sorry, I just need it in there again). And I don't understand John being okay with this. Because understanding and actually tolerating are different things.
and yet to trust Sherlock with her secret
Thats exactly what she should have done. Instead of using the gun. He even instantly offered to help her, he didn't care about her dark past.
I really like the dynamic between Sherlock and Mary
I'm not sure how much of the dynamic is genuie, tbh, because Sherlock allows her a lot. He deliberatelly overlooks the clues that she has secrets. He's tolerating her. He's not fighting her. In my eyes he does this because if he went against her from the beginning, that would mean going against John and he couldn't afford that in TEH where their relationship was in already very wounded.
Mary is alive for 1/3 of the Sherlock Holmes stories
Then again, she also was already dead by the time Holmes came back from hiatus. Also, being alive in the stories is the only thing she did in most of them. She didn't mingle. I feel her overused in S3.
Thanks for bringing this discussion on! As I said, I really like this.
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oh, it did happen and John meant it, and yet, in no way could it not have left traces. This is the psychology behind things which I missed so much in season 2 which was much less plausible because of not working things out. john has PTSD, don#t forget that. He's lost his best friends in the war. Sherlock isn't the only one who grieved his dog, though john seems to have a different approach to dealing with it...repressing it rather than simply not forming any emotional bond of relationship with anyone ever like Sherlock. That is why John has nightmares. the nightmare scene showed his subconsciusness, his need to go out there, because he is addicted, and he's also terrified. Psychologically it is very conclusive. And he has grieved Sherlock and he has found love with Mary and he has moved on. To have grieved over someone and then have them return means that you have seperated yourself from them in many ways, and even if Sherlock is still john's best friend, he is necessarily detached from him in some ways which show in this series. And whether it be Mary or another friend or a pet or a fulfilling job, any of those things would have helped him to move on, and the reaction would have been the same. So mary as a person does not really feature in that equation, but she does feature as someone who helped John move on. Sherlock still is and will (canonically) always be John's best friend. but John has a life outside of Sherlock, and Sherlock has very painfully learned this season that he doesn't really have a life outside of John...and they both have to readjust their lives to end up where season 4 will take them...in a canonical universe.
And they do live apart, even if Mary chooses Baker Street to hang out to Sherlock doesn't feel left out. But essentially John only moved back in with Sherlock after Mary's shooting of Sherlock, which doesn't mean that he doesn't have to work through the experience of getting back in touch with his former self while having changed profoundly...as has Sherlock. (Though I am sad that we didn't get to see those months, because they would have been super interesting and I am waiting for good fic to fill that gap)
And I see that your headcanon is interfereing here...John is, in this series, not in love with Sherlock. You can very easily read Sherlock as being in love with John, but it's quite obvious that John isn't. (And Sherlock's need for John, or what you can read as love, is mostly based on the fact that John has become his whole life, so whether romantically or in terms of dependance doesn't really matter as he doesn't act upon either apart from trying to make sure that John is safe). but if you think that way about the series it explains a lot why you are upset by some things which I simply cannot understand.
John does throw things in the wind a bit, btw, by moving out. BUT, he understands why Mary has done it, which is to protect him, and it would be a different story if John hadn't been in a similar position when he simply panicked and reacted and shot the cabbie, because sherlock was in danger...and this is why the entire 'you like psychopaths' episode makes a lot of sense...doesn't mean he can accept that easily, because he needs months to come to terms with it, but he accepts it, and he decides to trust Mary...and not only because Sherlock trusts her despite everything.
(continued in a second comment cause long as hale :p)
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John only moved back in with Sherlock after Mary's shooting of Sherlock,
Evidence please? Because I must have missed this. Did he actually move back?
You can very easily read Sherlock as being in love with John, but it's quite obvious that John isn't.
Oookay. Something's wrong with me then, because I've seen John in love with him since SiP. And of course I don't mean love-LOVE, but kind of instant, and then best-friend-love, platonic, and also need. And it was there all the time. The first time I've seen it disappear is actually HLV. That can't be just coincidence and me imagining things.
Though I guess I see your point.
it would be a different story if John hadn't been in a similar position when he simply panicked and reacted and shot the cabbie, because sherlock was in danger
But then again, the cabbie was the bad guy and not his wife's best friend who at the moment did nothing wrong.
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Yeah, something went wrong. Let's try and actually meet in the middle in S4.
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because he kind of hates his ordinary married domestic life now
wow, I do not see it like this AT ALL. he doesn't hatehis life, but he is missing the action, which is why he jumps at the chance to find the neighbour's boy. But it's the first thing we learn about John watson. it's the first thing of the series overall...the fact that John is in fact haunted by the war...He cries. So when Mycroft tells him he misses it, it's only partly true. Fact is, he has seen a lot of death and he has lost his best friends (presumably), or at least his comrades, and there is nothing exciting about this. So for me, the nightmare was a clear indicator that Sherlock has become part of his trauma now and that he still has to work this out. When he is with Sherlock, he feels the rush and he can ignore the dark side of things, just as Sherlock can ignore his addiction (which was introduced as a mirror image of John's nightmares I guess, because even tho it is for a case, Sherlock is clearly also trying to work through something by taking drugs --> leading to Molly slapping him.) In the stories Sherlock uses drugs to relax his mind so he doesn't go crazy...and it's updated in a nice way to fit the pattern of him needing the rush, quite literally. And the question is raised whether Sherlock solves cases to escape the drugs in opposition to the canonical he's taking drugs when he doesn't have cases, which fits with Lestrade's and Mycoft's worry about Sherlock.
And John, who married a former CIA agent, does understand (and eventually accept) the fact the she killed Sherlock for him (though I still doubt that he knows about the cardiac arrest, and even less about Sherlock returning because of his need to protect john), because as I mentioned above, he has done the same. He know to what lengths you will go to protect those you love. And Sherlock understanding her definitely helps him accept it, tho it does take him months...but I repeat myself :p
But essentially she shot Sherlock because when she told him she would shoot, he could have turned around and nothing bad would have happened, but he said he didn't believe her and took a step forward. In that moment, she had to shoot to protect her new found life...the only proper life she would ever have. And she knows what it all means, she knows what it would do to John if Sherlock died; she knows he could move on, because he doesn't depend on Sherlock as much as Sherlock depends on John.
And then she couldn't kill Magnussen because of Sherlock's foolishness of underestimating her because it would have meant that John would become a suspect, because he clearly wouldn't just leave the crime scene...and he was present in the building after all...so it was Sherlock who screwed up, and Mary reached the best possible solution to protect her freedom and John's in that moment.
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Yeah, this angered me as well. I have no idea where was John in this scene. Because as a doctor, and very good doctor, he should have been there in the mindpalace, helping Sherlock with the others.
Why doesn't Sherlock want/need him there?
Jesus, they are so fucked up, aren't they?
I really see the dream scene differently. *shrugs*
I loved Molly, Wiggins and the whole drug den and lab scene (+ the continuation in 221b)
Some more thoughts on the shooting..because that's seriously the whole and only turning point of this episode, of Mary, and of the whole season 3 for me:
If this is true like you say...
she had to shoot to protect her new found life...the only proper life she would ever have. And she knows what it all means, she knows what it would do to John if Sherlock died; she knows he could move on, because he doesn't depend on Sherlock as much as Sherlock depends on John.
...why doesn't she aim straight for the head then? As Sherlock pointed out later, she didn't know if he actually would, but she let him survive, even called the ambulance, etc. She actually risked John's trust much much more by allowing Sherlock to survive, because with him living, it was all bound to get out there sooner or later, hence she made it even worse for John - not only having to forgive her the lies but also for shooting his best friend. This doesn't make any sense! It only put Sherlock through pain and months in hospital.
If she rather decided in that spot to actually trust Sherlock and tell him the truth, let him help her...I might have had totally different meaning about her!
And let's not forget that then she went to Sherlock's room very soon after he woke up and actually threatened him to not tell John...wtf? It seriously bothered me a LOT that she tried this while he was in hospital, quite helpless, while she had power to harm or kill him (again). "Don't tell John" - or else what? "Or else I really will kill you for real next time"?
So maybe she did shot him into the chest instead of the head on purpose after all, because it was a win/win situation. Either it kills him straight away or at least makes him weak, and more pliable for her plans to keep the secret.
Cold, calculating, villainy character. I can't help it, sorry.
ETA:
"Honestly, I don’t want season 4 focusing on Mary, her past and the baby. She should never have shot Sherlock. Unforgettable. Unforgivable. Unjustified." <- these are not my actual words, I'm just citing someone from other discussion, because the person managed to express all what I feel in one sentence and not in fucking PhD which I tried, but still failed to do so properly.
Plus, I just remembered that not only was she a CIA agent, but also admitted to have done some freelance job.(!) What else is she hiding? I sense dark stuff. And I no longer have even a sliver of trust for her.
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I think that one good thing about Mary is that you either have to hate her or love her. So I guess that if nothing else, it makes her 3D even if not in a way I would have liked. Because as of now, I'd like her to stay the fuck away.
To my above-above comment...Please is there any evidence in the ep that John moved back in for the time between shooting and Christmas? Because I didn't catch this.
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As I said, Sherlock doesn't necessarily like Mary in the way that he feels friendship towards her. What he does understand is that john is the most lovable being he has ever encountered, and he knows that Mary truly loves John right from the beginning; so he overlooks her flaws in favour of keeping John happy. And she does, she does love John, and she even loves Sherlock, though she has to choose in that moment in Magnussens office...and it seems very logical that she chooses her own life and future over Sherlock's; and in a way, Sherlock gets her back by risking her future with John by making him hear him what she has to confess...and John still chooses her, just like he chose Sherlock again after his return; but he can actually talk about it with Mary, while the man on man conversation thing is naturally much more difficult and therefore complex in a different degree.
but I like that Sherlock doesn't blame Mary for her action, because he threw himself off a roof for John (plus ten other things), so he truly gets it. I like that about their dynamic. They mirror each other, and John knows that when he says cynically that they should get married.
she also was already dead by the time Holmes came back from hiatus Yes, so that would make about 15 stories of her being present (and very supportive of John's hanging around Baker Street, though John felt quite content in his married life). That they chose to bring on Moriarty and the hiatus that early on doesn' mean they have to stick to other parts of the story. And I think she is essential for this season, because she is the one who manages to draw Sherlock into their relationship. She is the one who asks what will happen to him if John dances with her...she really wants them to work this out and she is written in a way that she managed it...especially now that she has shown to what lengths she will go to protect John and herself; Sherlock can understand and appreciate that and he appreciates that she is, in fact, sorry about shooting him; and that is why John only gets a handshake. becase he knows John is in good hands. because essentially, mary is one of the most intelligent, funny, tolerant and emotional people he has had the pleasure of getting to know; and leaving John in her capable hands means he trusts her enough to keep her secret safe from that point on.
though I wonder how much Mycroft knows...
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here
Anyway....brain exploded. What a discussion.
Thanks for providing more meat to chew on. I can't see myself changing many of my opinions, but I have wider insight now.
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Anyway, I think that Mycroft knows a LOT.
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Sorry, I would have rather talked here, because I hate to have conversations on Tumblr, but I saw your Tumblr post sooner than I came here.
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