Question of ethics re bigoted language in the source material

[the_moonmoth]

Warning for slurs and discussion of same.So here's a question I ponder a lot given the amount this comes up in Buffy fanfic: how okay is it to use bigoted or otherwise offensive language in your fanfic if it's been used in the source material

Comments

[the_moonmoth]

I haven't read that book but I'm going to assume the words in question are used in context to a larger narrative re race, and not as throwaway lines or for shock value?

Re fanfic, yes, as you say: what constitutes 'required'? I think people's definition of this will vary quite a bit. I want to say that it's never required, unless (as I've assumed above) there's some larger context being explored, but I'm fully aware that as a cis/straight woman I am not the gatekeeper of homophobic slur usage (as a woc, racist slurs are another matter).

[rbfvid]

**considers possibility of AU, where early seasons' Spike is under the spell that forces him to use exclusively PC language** Actually, that could be funny as hell.

[the_moonmoth]

Lol, that would be interesting. I don't love the term PC, but I get the general idea, and it is a funny idea ;)

[rbfvid]

Yeah, "politeness spell" sounds abolutely like the thing that Willow could cast on S4 Spike, for instance =)

Oh, and on the subject: whichever words you choose, some people will be displeased by your choice anyway. Either because of their personal triggers (and it's impossible to cover everyone's personal triggers), or because your choice was too tame and OOC.
IMO, in case of fanfiction it's pretty simple - stick to the level of rudeness established in canon. If you are writing modern-day AU, make some appropriate language changes.
(Though, vampires could be slow on uptake here. Actually, I can easily imagine modern day Slayer who detects vampires from the use of outdated slurs, like Buffy detected them from outdated clothes.)

[the_moonmoth]

some people will be displeased by your choice anyway

Yes, but pleasing everyone isn't really what I'm trying to achieve. Pleasing myself, really. And part of that is not adding undue harm to people (like me, I might add) who are often harmed by careless words.

There is, I suggest, quite a large difference between a personal trigger and something that is known and generally accepted to be either outright offensive or, at best, a bit iffy. It upsets me to read racial slurs not because it isn't progressive enough, but because, having had those slurs directed at me, it really can ruin my whole day. It's for this reason I don't think it's just as simple as sticking to the same level as canon.

[rahirah]

I think there are good arguments to be made on both sides of this argument, honestly. For myself, I try to apply a couple of rules of thumb

[the_moonmoth]

So you're coming at this from... idk the proper term... from a narrative point of view? Justification (or lack thereof) comes from the text, right? I see the argument, but it never sits right with me. For example, I still had a bit of a flinchy reaction to the word "colored" as you used it above - I see and understand your reasoning, but at the same time, the effect on me, the reader, is a negative one, and I would've preferred not to have read it

[rahirah]

I honestly don't know. I think I try to make a separation between the character's dumbass attitudes, and the author's dumbass attitudes? Which is hard to do sometimes, so hardly a perfect solution, but... this is one of those things that people have debated for centuries in one form or another, and I don't think anyone's ever come up with that perfect solution

[the_moonmoth]

Hmm, thanks. I'm going to bed now but I'll give this some thought.

Going back to something else for a minute though - do you think Americans in general, and American BtVS fans/authors in particular, know the real meaning of words like ponce and poof? Are they British slang? Because I can see where people would think they're generic British-sounding insults without knowing the implications behind them. And don't answer this if it's too personal, but do you, my friend whose opinion and feelings I care very much about, find them offensive? Never mind, you ETA'd above :) Thanks.

[thornsilver]

I would say it matters which character uses it and why as well as the character POV. Will Spike use sexuality based insults? I'd bet he would. With malice afterthought even. Should one of the Scoobies correct the usage of "Gypsy Curse"? I'd say it is not out of the character. Would someone born in 17th century still think of it as "Gypsy Curse"? I wouldn't be surprised at all.

If your character in the story uses those kinds of insults, do you as an author suggest that it is an OK thing to do, or does author's voice tells the reader that the character was wrong?

[the_moonmoth]

Completely off topic but can I just say how much I love the phrase 'malice aforethought'? It's one of those ones I never think to use myself, but always have a little geek-out over when I see it :)

ANYWAY.

If your character in the story uses those kinds of insults, do you as an author suggest that it is an OK thing to do, or does author's voice tells the reader that the character was wrong?

Yes, good question, thank you. In the phrase I mentioned above, it's just a passing thought in Spike's POV about the crucifix necklace Angel gave to Buffy in S1. It feels to me like the type of thing he'd think, but there's no opportunity for textual condemnation, which makes me uncomfortable.

[kerry_220]

The trouble is almost all profanity is, in one way or another offensive - be it racist, sexist or just plain obscene. Is it better to use 'wanker' or 'bollocks' over 'poof' or 'nance'? I can see arguing for none of the above, but canon established Spike swore a lot and finding acceptable alternatives that don't 'clunk' could be an interesting exercise.

And there is that whole cultural thing too (I think you got into that with Barb). Spike refers to Andrew as 'the boy' and I know that is unacceptable to some. It's offensive to call a man 'soft' here.

The challenge with using an established character is they have well known idiosyncrasies. I suppose you can remove some if they grate with you, but then the character is harder to identify. Of course, Spike has A LOT of idiosyncrasies so you could probably get away with it :-) But he would call it a "poncey necklace", so you're caught either way (I was going to say buggered...but I thought better of it)

[the_moonmoth]

Is it better to use 'wanker' or 'bollocks' over 'poof' or 'nance'?

Actually, imo, yes. Don't you think there's a difference between crude words for body parts and homophobia?

[kerry_220]

Don't you think there's a difference between crude words for body parts and homophobia?

There's definitely a difference, but both will probably offend someone and occasionally the body part ones can be a big trigger. I've read authors who use the derogatory girl parts one and I'm beyond appalled. I can't imagine there is anything worse to call a woman. But then I've not been subjected to any homophobic slurs so I can't judge.

As an aside, the term 'Mick' is often used to refer to a Catholic in Australia. It's not all that offensive. I hadn't fully realised it had other origins. Go for the learning!

Oh, and again with the ignorance.. What is p@ki? I think I know, but I'm not certain

[torrilin]

It's a british insult derived from Pakistani, and it's used fairly indiscriminately for anyone of possibly Indian sub continent background. It is roughly equivalent to n*gg*r in offensiveness, and I know that has sometimes been used by Aussies in relation to Aboriginal people.

Mick is occasionally used in the US as an insult for Irish people, but due to my Catholic background it's tough for me to assess how common it is. I've seen it used in stories by older Catholics telling about how they were treated by the Protestant majority, but it's not something I've ever heard used with intent. Doesn't mean it isn't, just I haven't encountered it first hand. But if you're hanging out in majority Catholic neighborhoods in the US, there will be enough Hispanics that a typical racist/xenophobe won't ever get around to the Poles, Italians and Irish before the police get involved.