Question of ethics re bigoted language in the source material

[the_moonmoth]

Warning for slurs and discussion of same.So here's a question I ponder a lot given the amount this comes up in Buffy fanfic: how okay is it to use bigoted or otherwise offensive language in your fanfic if it's been used in the source material

Comments

[quinara]

My rule is basically that if I don't want to write it, the characters don't get to say it, so I don't even care. There are millions and millions of words for them to use and I have a particular fondness for 'fuck' which would surely be much more in character for half of them than what they were allowed to say in canon, so I don't mind submitting everyone to the censors that are my personal enjoyment. :D

On 'ponce', though, I think it's debatable how much it's a homophobic slur - it's an accusation of being a pimp, after all, and while it's obviously there to bully men who step out of line from the expected bonds of masculinity, to me it's an insult that isn't offensive for being used as an insult, as it accuses someone of being something actually unsavoury. We can't make the characters all be nice to each other, after all!

[the_moonmoth]

My rule is basically that if I don't want to write it, the characters don't get to say it, so I don't even care.

Quite :) I've got 8 stories up on EF so far and always managed to wend my way around the sticky parts, but I guess the heart to the problem is part of me really likes that line :-/ Hence the chest beating and self-examination.

On 'ponce', though, I think it's debatable how much it's a homophobic slur - it's an accusation of being a pimp, after all,

Innnnnteresting. To me, growing up in the midlands, it always meant effeminate, with strong homophobic overtones. Wonder if this is a region-specific word.

[quinara]

nnnnnteresting. To me, growing up in the midlands, it always meant effeminate, with strong homophobic overtones. Wonder if this is a region-specific word.Almost failed to reply to this! Hmm...! My parents actually both grew up in the (West) Midlands (my mum was in Birmingham until the late 60s before her family moved and my dad was in Worcester until he went to uni in the mid 70s) and the only reason this is relevant is because I remember my mum getting really angry with me for using 'ponce' when I was about 14/15, and she had this thing about how she had used it when she was young and her father had made her look it up in the dictionary and she was like 'and it's a prostitute's pimp!'. And my response was exactly 'well, why I can't I use it as a derogatory term then'? But I do wonder whether some of her wires got crossed, and while she had been made to look up the definition, she'd actually felt ashamed for using it as a homophobic thing as a teenager. But then neither of my parents are what you might call progressive, so I don

[shapinglight]

I mostly agree with Quin above. I try not to put words in characters' mouths that I don't want to hear myself.

This (a couple of spuffy authors just love making Spike say 'p@ki' for some reason - maybe they think it's edgy? Idk.) fills me with absolute horror. Are these authors Brits or Americans? If they're Americans, I'm going to assume that they don't know how loaded that word is (as Barb points out above, it's often a case of cross-Atlantic misunderstandings). If Brits, do they hate the character, or what

[quinara]

we only heard heard him do so in the show once, when he called Doyle a 'Mick,' which made me cringe at the time

Blergh, yes; me as well. If I actually think about Spike and slurs at the end of today rather than this morning, I can't help but think of him as a proper punk, for better or worse, and as we all know a very strong part of the movement was anti-racism, especially the art scene part that morphed into Billy Idol stealing his look from Spike. There's a reason the subtitle of John Lydon's memoir (which I always forget to buy) is 'No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs', after all.

[shapinglight]

Wanting to shock was also a very big part of punk, of course, remembering pre-Banshees days pics of Siouxsie wearing a swastika armband.

But yeah, anti-racism was a huge part of it. I still have my memorabilia from the first Anti-Nazi League march in 1978 somewhere. Plenty of punks marching in that. Unfortunately, I never got to see the Clash. We had to leave before they came on.

[quinara]

Oh yeah, the politics at the start are all a bit twisted up. Reading what they had/have to say about all that stuff, the super jaded historian-when-I-want-to-be in me sees it in the same vein as a lot of 70s feminism - it makes sense in a world that is much less connected, and if you think that the people they're talking to are the people filling the rather monolithic media, not the world at large or even really the people in and down their street. Like, if you set Siouxsie against that Fawlty Towers episode with Basil mentioning the war, there's a point to be made about how a bloke pretending to be Hitler with a tea towel on his head is apparently completely hilarious, whereas the moment you get an armband out it's suddenly offensive. (And similarly, you can put tits anywhere you like and have Barbara Windsor's cleavage right in your face, but woe betide anyone who shows a nipple - a point which I sort of think still stands, a bit

[torrilin]

Gypsy vs Romani - look, it's not my fault all the Mutant Enemy writers somehow managed to entirely ignore the Shoah. But Romani and homesexuals and disabled people being targeted in the Shoah in addition to Jewish people WAS NOT NEWS in 1996. Or 1986. Maybe in 1976. Maybe, but I wasn't born then, and I don't have suitable bibliography to hand to do a reasonable historical assessment. Gypsy being a slur probably counts as kinda news in 1996 for Americans

[rahirah]

(This is completely off topic, but I know a lot of people who'd fight you on both Spike's taste in jewelry and Angel's fashion sense.)

[torrilin]

Didn't say he has objectively good taste, just he clearly likes it, he wears it a lot, and he has very clear thoughts about what he'd wear ;). A guy in our culture with strong opinions on fashion is often seen as being "gay", moreso if he wears a lot of jewelry or makeup. And Spike can't help but be aware of this. And he does it anyway, because fashion matters to him. A lot.

Angel has a very different approach, it's not better or worse, just... different. And Spike thinks Angel's approach is awful and stupid, because he pretty much thinks everything Angel does is awful and stupid. And Angel thinks Spike's approach is awful and stupid.

Personally, Spike's approach is more fun for me, but I love fashion and clothes as an art form even if my personal style is more like Angel's.

[eowyn_315]

And he does it anyway, because fashion matters to him. A lot.

LOL sorry for continuing to go off-topic but I admit I find it hard to agree that "fashion" matters to a guy who wore basically the same t-shirt every day for four years. I think "looking cool" matters a lot to Spike, and sometimes that involves being aware of fashion (1970s punk Spike) and sometimes it means as long as you have a kick-ass leather coat, it doesn't matter that underneath you're wearing the same clothes every day.

[gillo]

Interesting points and fascinating discussion

[the_moonmoth]

His consistent use of effeminate slurs about Angel is, I feel, funny because he clearly has no real problem with Angel's sexuality (and we have it from Joss that Spangel was a thing, at least once) and is looking for language which would annoy him

Ok, but my real question isn't about whether or not Spike is a homophobe - rather, whether it's ethical for me, the author, to put those words in his mouth, knowing that they could (are even likely to) cause hurt to someone who's had them used against them by actual homophobes in the real world? Personally, I don't think you can detach a text from its readership so comprehensively to make the excuse 'Spike isn't a homophobe' (which I agree with btw) meaningful to the person whose day just got ruined because the fic they were enjoying turned round and slapped them in the face.

Giles uses 'berk', for example, and the origin of that is very offensive.

Ha ha omg! I just googled it. You learn something new...

[shapinglight]

Giles uses 'berk', for example, and the origin of that is very offensive.

Ha ha omg! I just googled it. You learn something new...

You do indeed. I never knew that.

[torrilin]

There's an ao3 tag warning I've seen that seems *perfect* for this situation.

"canon typical violence" can be reworded as "canon typical slurs" if you choose to use them.

If you look at Spike's language on the show (because he's definitely into being rude and crude, and most likely to be offensive), he doesn't litter his speech with various flavors of rude words. He uses them to make a point. You can write Spike in character without him being all that foul mouthed.

Further, since we have the full scripts *and* transcripts at Buffyworld, it's probably pretty doable to assemble a Buffyverse dictionary so you can make the computer check whether a particular insult is canon. And it should be doable to flag canon insults with appropriate definitions, so the writer who is less fluent in British can make decent choices.

[feliciacraft]

My basic rules (because, hey, I've got my two cents worth of opinions, too