I have vivid memories of the first time I saw this episode. I was unspoiled and totally innocent about what people talked about on the internet.. I honestly thought the building falling down meant the walls coming down between them. Thinking of the way Spike/Buffy had been bonding before they kissed, I had been lead down the garden path by the ME writers, and I was in complete denial and refused to see what was in front of my face. It's quite obvious that a physical relationship between an unsouled vampire and a slayer was a disaster in the making, but like I said--denial
( ... )
The Parental council tried to have the episode banned, but then they said that DESTINY was naughty, too.
Oh, and didn't they also complain about the clear indication Wesley going down on (spoiler) in season 4? Anyway, this reminds me of Joss mentioning that back in season 1, with the episode Teacher's Pet, he had trouble getting the WB to license the use of the word "virgin" (as in Xander was one). Little did they know what was to come...
Anyway, as I'm not a shipper this might amaze you, but I think when it comes to Buffy and Spike, they should also introduce the category "Meaningful Looks Exchanged" as they had quite a few memorable ones of those, too.
And in conclusion: that Smashed scene was hot. *g*
First, one overall observation: I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again. Because she's literally screwing death this season. And it ties back to his speech to her in Fool for Love - that one day, her ties to the world (friends, family) won't be enough and he'll slip in and have himself a really good day. Back then, Spike deliberately used the double meaning of Eros and Thanatos (in that speech, you can't tell whether he means "I'll kill you" or "We'll have sex"). And now Buffy does via her actions. She wouldn't make a deliberate suicide attempt any more, but on some level, having sex with a vampire who killed two Slayers and tried to kill her a couple of times in the past while provoking him verbally and physically is just that, if you ask me.
Willow's "for no reason at all": yes, she still refuses to acknowledge the truth, and is on a downwards spiral.
Regarding Buffy's insults: I have the impression that she uses as insults something she's afraid of
( ... )
I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again. Very good point!
Yes, indeed, and later on in DT the alley scene very much parallels the church scene between Buffy and Faith in Who Are You?, with both Slayers doing the same thing - screaming self-abuse at another person but meaning themselves while dealing out punches.
I agree completely. I love the parallel to Faith in Dead Things. (The title of this episode is absolutely brilliant, too. )
but Joss said that would imply boy-on-boy action was a punishment, which would be wrong. "And that was when I realized that Joss Whedon being straight is one of the greatest wastes in history."
First, one overall observation: I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again. Because she's literally screwing death this season. And it ties back to his speech to her in Fool for Love - that one day, her ties to the world (friends, family) won't be enough and he'll slip in and have himself a really good day. Back then, Spike deliberately used the double meaning of Eros and Thanatos (in that speech, you can't tell whether he means "I'll kill you" or "We'll have sex"). And now Buffy does via her actions. She wouldn't make a deliberate suicide attempt any more, but on some level, having sex with a vampire who killed two Slayers and tried to kill her a couple of times in the past while provoking him verbally and physically is just that, if you ask me. I think you make a good point, and when I watch FOOL FOR LOVE that definitely crosses my mind. Thalia has seen DEAD THINGS, so we can talk that far. Buffy says she doesn't trust Spike, but then she wears the handcuffs,
( ... )
Still, I think it's far more complicated than her just wanting him to kill her, though.
Their relationship is extremely complex what makes it so interesting to watch. I think that a part of Buffy wants Spike to be evil, to take advantage of her and to destroy her. But gradually she has to realise that Spike does care deeply for her and that a considerable part of the darkness in their relationship stems from herself and not from him.
Okay, now I can't resist quoting after all, because it fits so well. Okay, this is Buffy talking about her s 6 relationship with Spike to, well, someone. *is mysterious*
BUFFY: And the joke is... he loved me. I mean, in his own sick, soulless way, he really did care for me. But I-I didn't want to be loved. (...) I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. (...) I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved.
Very interesting. Especially that she still doesn't recognize Spike's feeling as a form of real love. She still puts it down by giving it the labels "sick" and "soulless". Apart from that I agree with her own psychoanalysis. *g*
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The Parental council tried to have the episode banned, but then they said that DESTINY was naughty, too.
Several of their kisses have made some best of lists over the years too. (TV GUIDE greatest kisses ever, etc.)
Yes, I know this because I'm president of the LJ Marsters fan club. (I'm kidding, but I may as well be.)
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Oh, and didn't they also complain about the clear indication Wesley going down on (spoiler) in season 4? Anyway, this reminds me of Joss mentioning that back in season 1, with the episode Teacher's Pet, he had trouble getting the WB to license the use of the word "virgin" (as in Xander was one). Little did they know what was to come...
Anyway, as I'm not a shipper this might amaze you, but I think when it comes to Buffy and Spike, they should also introduce the category "Meaningful Looks Exchanged" as they had quite a few memorable ones of those, too.
And in conclusion: that Smashed scene was hot. *g*
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Willow's "for no reason at all": yes, she still refuses to acknowledge the truth, and is on a downwards spiral.
Regarding Buffy's insults: I have the impression that she uses as insults something she's afraid of ( ... )
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Very good point!
Yes, indeed, and later on in DT the alley scene very much parallels the church scene between Buffy and Faith in Who Are You?, with both Slayers doing the same thing - screaming self-abuse at another person but meaning themselves while dealing out punches.
I agree completely. I love the parallel to Faith in Dead Things. (The title of this episode is absolutely brilliant, too. )
but Joss said that would imply boy-on-boy action was a punishment, which would be wrong. "And that was when I realized that Joss Whedon being straight is one of the greatest wastes in history."
Great tidbit. I heart Joss Whedon.
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It was. Steven DeKnight has a thing for punning titles; the season 4 of AtS opener title, Deep Down, is full of several meanings as well.
Re: Faith: of course, there are other Faith parallels (and contrasts) going on in that particular scene as well.
I heart Joss Whedon.
He's the sadistic, black-humoured God whom one worships.*g*
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Their relationship is extremely complex what makes it so interesting to watch.
I think that a part of Buffy wants Spike to be evil, to take advantage of her and to destroy her. But gradually she has to realise that Spike does care deeply for her and that a considerable part of the darkness in their relationship stems from herself and not from him.
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BUFFY: And the joke is... he loved me. I mean, in his own sick, soulless way, he really did care for me. But I-I didn't want to be loved. (...)
I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. (...) I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved.
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