First, one overall observation: I think it's significant that Buffy, kisses aside, doesn't have sex with Spike until learning he can kill her again. Because she's literally screwing death this season. And it ties back to his speech to her in Fool for Love - that one day, her ties to the world (friends, family) won't be enough and he'll slip in and have himself a really good day. Back then, Spike deliberately used the double meaning of Eros and Thanatos (in that speech, you can't tell whether he means "I'll kill you" or "We'll have sex"). And now Buffy does via her actions. She wouldn't make a deliberate suicide attempt any more, but on some level, having sex with a vampire who killed two Slayers and tried to kill her a couple of times in the past while provoking him verbally and physically is just that, if you ask me.
I think you make a good point, and when I watch FOOL FOR LOVE that definitely crosses my mind. Thalia has seen DEAD THINGS, so we can talk that far. Buffy says she doesn't trust Spike, but then she wears the handcuffs, so either she trusts him or she doesn't care what he does to her. Still, I think it's far more complicated than her just wanting him to kill her, though.
Still, I think it's far more complicated than her just wanting him to kill her, though.
Their relationship is extremely complex what makes it so interesting to watch. I think that a part of Buffy wants Spike to be evil, to take advantage of her and to destroy her. But gradually she has to realise that Spike does care deeply for her and that a considerable part of the darkness in their relationship stems from herself and not from him.
Okay, now I can't resist quoting after all, because it fits so well. Okay, this is Buffy talking about her s 6 relationship with Spike to, well, someone. *is mysterious*
BUFFY: And the joke is... he loved me. I mean, in his own sick, soulless way, he really did care for me. But I-I didn't want to be loved. (...) I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. (...) I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved.
Very interesting. Especially that she still doesn't recognize Spike's feeling as a form of real love. She still puts it down by giving it the labels "sick" and "soulless". Apart from that I agree with her own psychoanalysis. *g*
Oh, she sees it as love, but not a healthy form of love. Which frankly I don't think it was, and not just because of Buffy's mental and emotional state in season 6, but also because, as karabair put it, soulless Spike's definition of love wasn't that different from Buffy's definition of "hating and using".
Or, to quote Luminosity from her commentary on her great magnum opus Scooby Road, about the Buffy/Spike in season 6 section of the same, Oh!Darling:
"Oh Darling! I didn't know what to do with this song. My first consideration was making it about Xander and Anya, but I just couldn't get cynical enough. Then elynross once again pointed out the obvious--that this was about Spike and Buffy. At first, I went back and forth, back and forth. Should it be funny, or should it be sad? Should I play it straight and make a sympathetic Spike vid? Well. NO. In a way, this is as much a meta response to fandom as it is a look at how Spike viewed his relationship with Buffy. A relationship of sexualized violence and degradation. That he relished. And loved. Spike was more of a vampire here in S6 than at any other time that we ever see him. (JMGLO, YMMV - see vid? *points*)
There's an underlying sense of, I don't know, *desperation* in the lyrics. A subtext of panic. When the panic finally manifests, the singer (Spike) does exactly the wrong thing. Every time. His intentions are good, but he's *EVIL*. It can't end well."
Leave it to me, but since you brought it up.. I have often wondered what the shameful horrible things that She/spike were doing? When DEAD THINGS roll around, as far as sexual escapades, they just seem a bit kinky to me... Maybe a bit heavy on the S&M..but considering WHO they were (Slayer/Vampire) not that shocking---especially after what we've seen from Angel, Faith and Darla. The bad part for Spike (although he claimed not to care about it) was that she didn't want to connect with him (or anyone), and Spike makes the women in his life his whole world.
The only thing Shameful that I could see was that Buffy was addicted to having kinky sex with Spike, who doesn't have a soul. Seeing that he previously had tried to kill her and her friends, that's rather disturbing and maybe something she wouldn't want people to know about.
The only thing Shameful that I could see was that Buffy was addicted to having kinky sex with Spike, who doesn't have a soul. Seeing that he previously had tried to kill her and her friends, that's rather disturbing and maybe something she wouldn't want people to know about.
I think that's it, basically, not any particular practices. (Though okay, can't see Riley using handcuffs, and Angel and Parker definitely didn't during their one nights with Buffy.) (Point of comparison: when we later have Buffy, under a spell, initializing rough sex with someone in a certain later ep, she's later embarrassed because of the identity of said person, not because of the rough sex itself.) Also that Buffy pre-Spike probably saw herself as someone who would have sex only with someone she's in love with. And with Spike, she can't let it be love on her part in season 6, hence the idea that it is something she has to be ashamed of.
I don't see Riley using chains either, and with Angel, she was an innocent--just the one time with Parker, and he was trying to be the impressive lover and she found him sweet, (Until of course, she found out he was a player) so I doubt it.
Oh, and your icon reminds me that I'm sure we agree Buffy was totally slashing Angel and Spike in her mind when she made her little observation re: them in Chosen. *veg*
(I'm even guessing we agree that Buffy was right when she said, also about the pair, that they're twelve when dealing with each other.*g*)
No doubt.*g* Have you read Joss "in my world, heroes bugger each other senseless" post in reply to someone at Whedonesque saying that surely, we were not to imply from certain s5 events that, etc.? Bless.
Oh, and I just heard the commentary for LMPTM. (For some reason, I hadn't gotten around to it before.) Have you? One part blew my mind, because it was so obvious and I hadn't noticed it before. (Re: Buffy and Female Person From Spike's Past In This Episode.)
I think you make a good point, and when I watch FOOL FOR LOVE that definitely crosses my mind. Thalia has seen DEAD THINGS, so we can talk that far. Buffy says she doesn't trust Spike, but then she wears the handcuffs, so either she trusts him or she doesn't care what he does to her. Still, I think it's far more complicated than her just wanting him to kill her, though.
Reply
Their relationship is extremely complex what makes it so interesting to watch.
I think that a part of Buffy wants Spike to be evil, to take advantage of her and to destroy her. But gradually she has to realise that Spike does care deeply for her and that a considerable part of the darkness in their relationship stems from herself and not from him.
Reply
BUFFY: And the joke is... he loved me. I mean, in his own sick, soulless way, he really did care for me. But I-I didn't want to be loved. (...)
I have all this power. I didn't ask for it. I don't deserve it. (...) I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved.
Reply
Reply
Or, to quote Luminosity from her commentary on her great magnum opus Scooby Road, about the Buffy/Spike in season 6 section of the same, Oh!Darling:
"Oh Darling! I didn't know what to do with this song. My first
consideration was making it about Xander and Anya, but I just couldn't
get cynical enough. Then elynross once again pointed out the
obvious--that this was about Spike and Buffy. At first, I went back
and forth, back and forth. Should it be funny, or should it be sad?
Should I play it straight and make a sympathetic Spike vid? Well. NO.
In a way, this is as much a meta response to fandom as it is a look at
how Spike viewed his relationship with Buffy. A relationship of
sexualized violence and degradation. That he relished. And loved.
Spike was more of a vampire here in S6 than at any other time that we
ever see him. (JMGLO, YMMV - see vid? *points*)
There's an underlying sense of, I don't know, *desperation* in the
lyrics. A subtext of panic. When the panic finally manifests, the
singer (Spike) does exactly the wrong thing. Every time. His
intentions are good, but he's *EVIL*. It can't end well."
Reply
The only thing Shameful that I could see was that Buffy was addicted to having kinky sex with Spike, who doesn't have a soul. Seeing that he previously had tried to kill her and her friends, that's rather disturbing and maybe something she wouldn't want people to know about.
Reply
I think that's it, basically, not any particular practices. (Though okay, can't see Riley using handcuffs, and Angel and Parker definitely didn't during their one nights with Buffy.) (Point of comparison: when we later have Buffy, under a spell, initializing rough sex with someone in a certain later ep, she's later embarrassed because of the identity of said person, not because of the rough sex itself.) Also that Buffy pre-Spike probably saw herself as someone who would have sex only with someone she's in love with. And with Spike, she can't let it be love on her part in season 6, hence the idea that it is something she has to be ashamed of.
Reply
I'm glad we agree! YAY.
Reply
Oh, and your icon reminds me that I'm sure we agree Buffy was totally slashing Angel and Spike in her mind when she made her little observation re: them in Chosen. *veg*
(I'm even guessing we agree that Buffy was right when she said, also about the pair, that they're twelve when dealing with each other.*g*)
Reply
Reply
Oh, and I just heard the commentary for LMPTM. (For some reason, I hadn't gotten around to it before.) Have you? One part blew my mind, because it was so obvious and I hadn't noticed it before. (Re: Buffy and Female Person From Spike's Past In This Episode.)
Reply
Quotes like these melt my heart.
Reply
*encourages molten heart*
Reply
I can't remember it right now. Can't find it in my file where I store all the interesting essays and quotes.
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment