Heh, well, anytime I think thoughts about women writing men for women's perceptions, I think back on the stories I've read by men, writing women for a man's perceptions.
And...yeah.
Everyone has different tastes and people write for those tastes. I know gay men who really enjoy slash and I know ones that are horrified by the concept of women writing gay men. (Which I never understand because all writers through the ages write other perceptions. Shakespeare was never a Faery Queen but it didn't stop him from writing Titania....)
For every person who says, 'A gay man/woman/klingon would NEVER do that!' there is another person saying, 'Yes, I did that just last week!'
Anyway, I'm babbling. Heck, if more people spend time reading stuff they enjoyed rather than griping about things they don't, we'd need less antacids, I think. *G*
Yeah, I agree with what you say 100%. There are many different ways that writers can trip themselves up and block themselves if they let themselves worry about what other people think they should be writing, and this one is a biggie for slash writers. Eventually, you have to just sit down and write the story that makes you happy because it's the story that you want to write. And if other people don't like it because it's not what they would have written, then they're perfectly free to go off and write what makes them happy. They just don't have the right to say that their take on something is the only 'right' way of approaching it.
And if other people don't like it because it's not what they would have written, then they're perfectly free to go off and write what makes them happy.
*nods head*
Yes, and I think I backed myself into a nice little mental block on it, you know. Trying to be more than I can be, and less than I am.
A very interesting post, and I've enjoyed reading it. It also gave my funny ideas. But I have to point one thing. In the Brazilian fandom, we have gay writers who can write slash exactly as we women enjoy, and they also read slash stories written by women and enjoy them.
Of course, I know guys who do the same - it's not everyone who reacts the way I've described. But there are some, and I've listened over the years, and I think it coloured the way I approach slash. I think it's gotten me to a point where I'm missing out on a lot of the enjoyment I might otherwise have.
Really, this is a post about my perceptions, not a blanket male-female contrast *g*. Not really.
Although I do have definite likes and dislikes in slash, much of it centered around what strikes as either authentic or unauthentic1, I don't for one moment consider slash to be a (gay) man's realm. It isn't. It's written by and for women; I'm just a guest here.
That said, I don't think slash is immune to the standards of good writing. Or at least it shouldn't be. Women may of course choose to make their characterization as wildly unrealistic as they wish, but if it doesn't (for example) retain internal consistency, then there's a problem with technique. The vision however is totally their deal.
Not that you said differently, of course, but I have often seen the defense that everything counts as wonderful because it's whatever person's vision. And while that counts as self-expression, which is terrific, it doesn't necessarily count as good.
Which is, um, an opinion on something you didn't even mention. ::cough:: I'll go away now.
1 And I don't mean "would a real gay man do (blank)". For me, it's more a matter of would a
( ... )
Eep. Well I hope I'm not one of the aggressive, negative guys you mentioned above. I mean, yes, I do have likes and dislikes, as does everyone, but mine aren't any more valid than anyone else's; they're just mine, is all. I won't even say that my great preference for gritty, realistic stories is due to my status as a gay man, because I'm certain that if we polled gay men in fandom we'd get wildly different responses.
If the characterization or the premise is too removed from our own preferences, then it's hard to consider it 'good'.
Eh, I'm not sure I can totally agree with that, at least not without a redefinition of 'good'. If it's based on an extant source, then I think there is most definitely characterization in fic that either works or doesn't, because it's based on something. That doesn't mean there aren't droves of women who won't love it, but writing quality aside, those characters with those names arrive at a story with their own personalities. This isn't a straitjacket however, as I've seen all kinds of great
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I hope I'm not one of the aggressive, negative guys you mentioned above
Nope *g*.
the concepts of good and bad lose all meaning
Quite likely. I have my own preferences - and they seem to match in well with your own, but that's beside the point - and my version of 'good' is idiosyncratic to *me*. Yours is of value to you, and so on. I've seen stories recced from here to eternity that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, but they're considered 'good' by a lot of other people.
I'm not defending the indefensible. There are always stories that will be really, really poor, for all the reasons you've mentioned.
I'm simply saying that we pick and choose what we like according to our preferences, and my preferences had been coloured by a standard that I don't think is valid.
That's fascinating. And yes, I do think that women should write for themselves, not for some supposed audience, some of whom are going to be critical no matter what.
But isn't there a difference between writing and reading? The subversion in fan fiction is to move from being a consumer to a participant. Then you have that same interaction again when somebody reads what you're written.
So I don't think it is a bad thing to mentally critique another writer's work, if they've put it out there for you to read. But to take a 3rd party point of view as your own because they say slash has to conform to their understanding of gay reality, and they are more qualified than you to judge that reality - yes, I'd say that's problematic.
Umm... yes, that's wot I said *g*. Or rather, it was said, and I listened and took it on board, and it started to creep into my enjoyment of slash itself. The act of slashing, as it were. I started to be more aware of the audience, and that's helping me go nowhere fast.
But isn't there a difference between writing and reading?
Mmmmmmmmaybe. It crept over from one to the other for me. From reading, and judging, then trying to write, and JUDGING, and being found wanting. It's distracting me. I should just write, and bugger the value of it. It'll work itself out later.
I know this seems like sucking eggs to a lot of people, but I'm having to rediscover the joy of slash again, from the initial perspective I started with.
I'm starting to consider whether my reenactment background actually hampers my ability to be creative in slash. I spend a lot of time worrying about whether what I write is 'authentic' is all aspects.
Maybe I should seriously consider having a "damn the torpedoes" approach for a while and see where that leads *g*.
Only thing is, I fear I would be very reticent about showing it to anyone if I did.
LOL! Yes, a lot of drawer fic probably starts out with just that approach *g*. But then again, extending your horizons is exciting as well as frightening, and surely worth considering. Even if it just gives us a laugh, in the end. And a lock on the drawer ;-).
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And...yeah.
Everyone has different tastes and people write for those tastes. I know gay men who really enjoy slash and I know ones that are horrified by the concept of women writing gay men. (Which I never understand because all writers through the ages write other perceptions. Shakespeare was never a Faery Queen but it didn't stop him from writing Titania....)
For every person who says, 'A gay man/woman/klingon would NEVER do that!' there is another person saying, 'Yes, I did that just last week!'
Anyway, I'm babbling. Heck, if more people spend time reading stuff they enjoyed rather than griping about things they don't, we'd need less antacids, I think. *G*
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Room for all, I'd say.
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*nods head*
Yes, and I think I backed myself into a nice little mental block on it, you know. Trying to be more than I can be, and less than I am.
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Really, this is a post about my perceptions, not a blanket male-female contrast *g*. Not really.
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That said, I don't think slash is immune to the standards of good writing. Or at least it shouldn't be. Women may of course choose to make their characterization as wildly unrealistic as they wish, but if it doesn't (for example) retain internal consistency, then there's a problem with technique. The vision however is totally their deal.
Not that you said differently, of course, but I have often seen the defense that everything counts as wonderful because it's whatever person's vision. And while that counts as self-expression, which is terrific, it doesn't necessarily count as good.
Which is, um, an opinion on something you didn't even mention. ::cough:: I'll go away now.
1 And I don't mean "would a real gay man do (blank)". For me, it's more a matter of would a ( ... )
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If the characterization or the premise is too removed from our own preferences, then it's hard to consider it 'good'.
Eh, I'm not sure I can totally agree with that, at least not without a redefinition of 'good'. If it's based on an extant source, then I think there is most definitely characterization in fic that either works or doesn't, because it's based on something. That doesn't mean there aren't droves of women who won't love it, but writing quality aside, those characters with those names arrive at a story with their own personalities. This isn't a straitjacket however, as I've seen all kinds of great ( ... )
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Nope *g*.
the concepts of good and bad lose all meaning
Quite likely. I have my own preferences - and they seem to match in well with your own, but that's beside the point - and my version of 'good' is idiosyncratic to *me*. Yours is of value to you, and so on. I've seen stories recced from here to eternity that I wouldn't touch with a barge pole, but they're considered 'good' by a lot of other people.
I'm not defending the indefensible. There are always stories that will be really, really poor, for all the reasons you've mentioned.
I'm simply saying that we pick and choose what we like according to our preferences, and my preferences had been coloured by a standard that I don't think is valid.
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But isn't there a difference between writing and reading? The subversion in fan fiction is to move from being a consumer to a participant. Then you have that same interaction again when somebody reads what you're written.
So I don't think it is a bad thing to mentally critique another writer's work, if they've put it out there for you to read. But to take a 3rd party point of view as your own because they say slash has to conform to their understanding of gay reality, and they are more qualified than you to judge that reality - yes, I'd say that's problematic.
Ummm... was that wot you said?
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I started to be more aware of the audience, and that's helping me go nowhere fast.
But isn't there a difference between writing and reading?
Mmmmmmmmaybe. It crept over from one to the other for me. From reading, and judging, then trying to write, and JUDGING, and being found wanting. It's distracting me. I should just write, and bugger the value of it. It'll work itself out later.
I know this seems like sucking eggs to a lot of people, but I'm having to rediscover the joy of slash again, from the initial perspective I started with.
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Maybe I should seriously consider having a "damn the torpedoes" approach for a while and see where that leads *g*.
Only thing is, I fear I would be very reticent about showing it to anyone if I did.
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