Persecuting headgear

[ddstory]

What's a burqa, and does it have a place in our place? That's the question that a number of European societies have been pondering about for some time. In Germany for example, some province ministers of the interior have decided to ban the controversial headgear as part of the measures to counter Islamic radicalization. Other countries already have

Comments

[dreamville_bg]

[wight1984]

"For the umpteenth time. How are you going to establish that emotional and physical abuse is being done, if the victim has not been taught to detect it as such?"

I checked the thread... and this is the first time that particular tangent has appeared in this particular thread.

It is a potentially interesting tangent though so I'd recommend going to the threads were it's already been raised to discuss it.

[dreamville_bg]

I checked too, and it pops up in several places, by several people.

[wight1984]

If you're not satisfied with my replies to those questions, then perhaps the best thing would be to join those threads and state exactly what about my replies is insufficient?

I'll save you digging about and copy the links to the relevant threads (as already listed elsewhere..) to this thread:

"You've said little to nothing on the possible better solutions to the problem. What, in fact, is your suggestion?"

Rejecting a proposed solution for not working is usually easier than proposing an alternative working solution and that is definitely the case here.... although that doesn't mean that the non-working solution should be adopted.

I have however made some comment on the separate topic of what can be done to prevent abuse in family units... I pointed out three very general areas for action in this comment.

It also occurred to me that laws governing these issues already exist, and I found a document detailing how the UK government currently (attempts to) address these kinds of issues, which I posted a link to over hereObviously

[wight1984]

"No one is forcing you to internalize Western fashion. You can live and dress like a hippie all you like, and no one is going to persecute you for that. You just try not going out with your face covered when you're a young woman from a fundie Muslim family, and report back to me how that went."

The idea that western culture is some fully liberalised post-feminist utopia where people don't internalised cultural norms and values that guide their lives is not something I'm going to accept. Sorry.

Similarly, this fundie 'no trust scotman' vision of a Muslim family where women are so brainwashed from birth that their self-guided choices can't be considered free is not something that I'm going to take as my default view of Muslim women who wear hijab, burkinis, niqaab or even burqas.

As per my other reply... if you are hoping to persuade me of something, then I'm going to need more than just you telling me what your perception of Islamic families is.

[dreamville_bg]

"this fundie 'no trust scotman' vision of a Muslim family"

No one has argued that ALL Muslim families are this way. The argument is that there ARE Muslim families that are this way. You're using a strawman.

"The idea that western culture is some fully liberalised post-feminist utopia where people don't internalised cultural norms and values that guide their lives"

Another strawman, and a hyperbolic one, at that.

I think you're right: we should call this a day at this point.

[wight1984]

"No one has argued that ALL Muslim families are this way. The argument is that there ARE Muslim families that are this way. You're using a strawman."

I think you need to review the thread and your comments.

I have repeatedly pointed out that some Muslim women choose to wear these clothes. You have repeatedly responded to those remarks with general claims about Muslim women being forced or brainwashed into it.

If you believe that I have misread the thread, please quote from the comment where you argued otherwise. Show me where you acknowledged that some women choose to wear the veil freely.

[garote]

I've enjoyed reading through this thread, especially your earnest attempts to seek clarity in what is a very complicated terrain.

I'd like to add some counterweight to your offering of anecdotal examples of women freely choosing to wear their restrictive clothing, by pointing out the various state-sponsored Islamic religious police who enforce, among other things, the conservative mode of dress in their country, and back their demands up with the threat of everything from fines, to jail time, to physical violence.

I think we can agree that entities like these
A. are a clear contrast with western values
B. clearly represent mass-coercion of women to dress a certain way regardless of their individual choice
C. should be stamped out

[wight1984]

I would agree with each of your three points.

It should definitely be agreed that the enforcement of Islamic dress in some Muslim-majority nations is both:

(a) in principle, as bad as Islamic dress being forbidden
(b) in practice, a lot worse (both in terms of the codes enforced and the punishments for breaking them).

If you were to give me the power to end either France's dress laws or Saudi Arabia's dress laws, then a greater amount of good would be achieved by ending he latter.

Given this, it may be considered strange that France has received more media attention... for which I think there are three reasons:

(1) France's burkini ban is more recent (and recent news gets more attention than old news)

(2) France's burkini ban takes place in Western Europe, which is a region with a strong association with liberalism (whereas laws about what women can and can't aware is the sort of thing one might expect Saudi Arabia to have)

(3) France's burkini ban is controversial, whereas Saudi Arabia's laws are agreeably bad... meaning there

[garote]

Setting the right example is key I think, yes!

[luvdovz]

At what age do you believe Muslim women begin to get exposed to the social norms of their community that ultimately bring them to the point of being convinced they're freely choosing to comply to those norms?

[wight1984]

The same age as we all did

[luvdovz]

Which is what age, again?

False dichotomy? These are real issues existing in the real world on a large scale, modern societies clashing with them head-on, in ever more extreme ways. Hand-waving them by means of claiming fallacy on the person who brings them up, or dismissing them on the basis of them being "hard to address", is not going to make them go away.

[wight1984]

"Which is what age, again?"

At what age do we stop being socialised? There's no magic age at which someone becomes immune to the culture surrounding them, although early socialisation is likely to have a greater impact than in latter life.

"False dichotomy? These are real issues existing in the real world on a large scale, modern societies clashing with them head-on, in ever more extreme ways. Hand-waving them by means of claiming fallacy on the person who brings them up, or dismissing them on the basis of them being "hard to address", is not going to make them go away."

Just as well I didn't do those things then.

We seem to agree that this is a serious and important topic, so how about we treat it as such?

I get why the arguments are soldiers approach is psychologically tempting, but a refusal to really engage with what we are saying to each other is not going to make the world a better or worse place for Muslim women (or change the world in any way

[luvdovz]

Good. You're British. You may've had some observations on those Sharia courts that some Muslim communities in your country have insisted to have, in direct conflict with the actual laws of the land. I wonder how you feel about that.

YOU are lecturing me about refusing to engage with what we're saying to each other? You're the one who's been trying to get away from giving a specific answer to a specific question all along, using all sorts of weasel non-arguments.

Stop answering with questions to my question. It's a simple one really. At what age do Muslim women begin to get exposed to the social norms of their community?

Tip: from age 0.

The fact is that I do believe that Muslim women are capable of free will and are able to make decisions about their own life and how they want to dress

Except when they're indoctrinated from age 0 and being rendered incapable of discerning subtle and at times even overt social coercion, from what they imagine to be free will

[wight1984]

"You may've had some observations on those Sharia courts that some Muslim communities in your country have insisted to have, in direct conflict with the actual laws of the land. I wonder how you feel about that."

You need to check your news sources...

Full Fact - Sharia Law Courts

There are basically two types of issue involved in Sharia Law courts

(1) Mediation services that operate according to Sharia Law principles. This is where an Islamic organisation offers services like 'couples counselling' where guidance and advice is offered based on Sharia Law principles. The kind of guidance given is sometimes in conflict with the kinds of guidance received from secular mediation services, but it does not contradict UK law in either way (no more than a Catholic couple asking their priest to mediate a marital problem).

(2) Arbitration Courts - under UK law two parties can agree to settle a civil dispute via an agreed third party. This is a general privilege available to everyone... and some Muslims agree to settle their civil