Yeah, I'm back to going on about that...

[t_eyla]

So, the Doctor isn't God, and he's not an angel. If he's anything divine, he is a fallen angel - cast out of Heaven Gallifrey for his rebellion. However, a fallen angel, as we've seen in the example of the Master Lucifer, is usually evil, right?

Well, the Doctor's not evil. The Doctor's actually "better" than God the Time Lords themselves. So this

Comments

[earlwyn]

See, I would be interested to see you try to prove this (how good and evil you are is not a question of how good you are at pleasing a divine authority, but is entirely up to you) theory in an actual essay with easy-to-follow steps along the way because I feel I could be convinced of it.

But my gut reaction is a hesitant "no", mostly because of this statement: The Doctor's actually "better" than God the Time Lords themselves.Because that is completely subjective and we don't know, do we? We only really have the Doctor's perspective to go by and it's well-known that he took issue with the archaic Time Lords. It'd be like reading the Bible As Written By Lucifer (or another fallen angel, reaally) and basing our perspective of God and Heaven on what he said about it

[t_eyla]

I should have said, is displayed as better than the Time Lords. Because on the show, the Doctor's the good guy, he's the guy who's doing it right, even if he messes it up from time to time. He's the one who knows what's right and wrong. The Time Lords are rigid old fools, only there to wear funny hats and to be made fun of, until the Doctor eventually destroys them.

What's interesting is that he then starts idolizing them, which might indicate that while you don't need God, you want God. Because without God, what is there to rebel against?

It'd be like reading the Bible As Written By Lucifer
Hmm, not quite. Because Lucifer is evil, he was cast out of Heaven and went and fulfilled Heaven's expectations in him and became evil. But the Doctor was cast out, and he didn't give in to sin and corruption and bad ethics and non-existent morals. He has a moral codex without needing God's/the Time Lords' approval.

[earlwyn]

True. The Doctor is the Good Guy, full out, and he does retain a moral codex, unlike Lucifer the Master. But, such is the nature of fiction, no? There must be the Good Guy. And still, we only get the Doctor's point-of-view, which still calls into question the whole thing of the Time Lords being defunct.

Though: What's interesting is that he then starts idolizing them, which might indicate that while you don't need God, you want God.

Because YES. I think that is very true. God and all religion is a human construct invented in order to better explain the wacky universe and to ease people's angst in times of duress. I'm not sure it has quite so much to do with rebelling, per se, but I definitely see the Doctor turning to idolize the Time Lords now that they're gone out of the burden of Being Alone. And I don't think humans (or those that are religious, at least)d o very well generally with the concept of Being Alone and left to fend for themselves.

[t_eyla]

Yeah, you can doubt the statement of the show, but I do think that if Doctor Who - or at least New Who - is making a statement, it's what you said in your last paragraph: that God, and religion, is merely a construct, a crutch people make up so as not to be alone, and not to be burdened with the full weight of their own decisions.

I should maybe really write that article. I keep coming back to this topic, lol.

[wheatear]

But why should the Doctor be anything divine in the first place? I can see an argument for him being the saviour of mankind - but not a divine one.

[t_eyla]

Well, I don't think the Doctor is supposed to be divine. I think the point is that he's not, despite the fact that he could be. But to make that point, the show needs to play at all the what-if scenarios - what if he were like God, what if the whole world stood mesmerized, praying to him? Would he still not be God/something divine? I think the show very clearly states that he's not, but many people misinterpret that - or, you know, interpret it that way. It's a misinterpretation from my point of view, though.

And a fallen angel isn't divine. That's just the point of a fallen angel, that they're not divine.

[wheatear]

Oh, right. Well, yes, the show does use religious imagery when portraying the Doctor.

But the point of a fallen angel is that they used to be divine, right? And your argument only works if the Time Lords = God analogy works.

[t_eyla]

Yeah, the Time Lords would be God. Or maybe they'd be the Church. But the Doctor, while a Time Lord, is not part of the Time Lord society. He doesn't want to be; even when they ask him to be their President, he refuses. There's no point in canon when the Doctor is working with the Time Lords voluntarily and without reluctance. He's the one on the show who defines what's right and what's wrong, and one of the most basic aspects of his character is that he believes the Time Lords have got it wrong.

So, no matter whether the Time Lords are God, or whether they are the Church, the Doctor never saw himself as a part of them. Therefore, even if he's a fallen angel, even if he used to be divine, he never wanted to be. He never wanted to use the power that comes with being a divine being; he's all about independent thought and self-reliance. And if he's living in a universe in which he can decide who he wants to be - which is, I think, what the show argues; that it doesn't matter what people assume you are, you are only who you want to be -