Yeah, I'm back to going on about that...

[t_eyla]

So, the Doctor isn't God, and he's not an angel. If he's anything divine, he is a fallen angel - cast out of Heaven Gallifrey for his rebellion. However, a fallen angel, as we've seen in the example of the Master Lucifer, is usually evil, right?

Well, the Doctor's not evil. The Doctor's actually "better" than God the Time Lords themselves. So this

Comments

[earlwyn]

See, I would be interested to see you try to prove this (how good and evil you are is not a question of how good you are at pleasing a divine authority, but is entirely up to you) theory in an actual essay with easy-to-follow steps along the way because I feel I could be convinced of it.

But my gut reaction is a hesitant "no", mostly because of this statement: The Doctor's actually "better" than God the Time Lords themselves.

Because that is completely subjective and we don't know, do we? We only really have the Doctor's perspective to go by and it's well-known that he took issue with the archaic Time Lords. It'd be like reading the Bible As Written By Lucifer (or another fallen angel, reaally) and basing our perspective of God and Heaven on what he said about it.

We also know that the Doctor is not perfect and does rash things and breaks laws and usually suffers consequences because of that. So, one needs to ask themselves whether the Doctor is actually a trust-worthy voice. I mean, yes, he's brilliant, but he also makes mistakes and does a lot of fighting-then-running, while the Time Lords built this peaceful society and kept the universe in balance and maybe, maybe, maybe they did things that the Doctor dismisses but are essentially important.

So I'm balking a little bit at the idea that the Doctor is better than the Time Lords. He has a different agenda than them, yes. But it's not necessarily better.

[t_eyla]

I should have said, is displayed as better than the Time Lords. Because on the show, the Doctor's the good guy, he's the guy who's doing it right, even if he messes it up from time to time. He's the one who knows what's right and wrong. The Time Lords are rigid old fools, only there to wear funny hats and to be made fun of, until the Doctor eventually destroys them.

What's interesting is that he then starts idolizing them, which might indicate that while you don't need God, you want God. Because without God, what is there to rebel against?

It'd be like reading the Bible As Written By Lucifer
Hmm, not quite. Because Lucifer is evil, he was cast out of Heaven and went and fulfilled Heaven's expectations in him and became evil. But the Doctor was cast out, and he didn't give in to sin and corruption and bad ethics and non-existent morals. He has a moral codex without needing God's/the Time Lords' approval.

[earlwyn]

True. The Doctor is the Good Guy, full out, and he does retain a moral codex, unlike Lucifer the Master. But, such is the nature of fiction, no? There must be the Good Guy. And still, we only get the Doctor's point-of-view, which still calls into question the whole thing of the Time Lords being defunct.

Though: What's interesting is that he then starts idolizing them, which might indicate that while you don't need God, you want God.

Because YES. I think that is very true. God and all religion is a human construct invented in order to better explain the wacky universe and to ease people's angst in times of duress. I'm not sure it has quite so much to do with rebelling, per se, but I definitely see the Doctor turning to idolize the Time Lords now that they're gone out of the burden of Being Alone. And I don't think humans (or those that are religious, at least)d o very well generally with the concept of Being Alone and left to fend for themselves.

[t_eyla]

Yeah, you can doubt the statement of the show, but I do think that if Doctor Who - or at least New Who - is making a statement, it's what you said in your last paragraph: that God, and religion, is merely a construct, a crutch people make up so as not to be alone, and not to be burdened with the full weight of their own decisions.

I should maybe really write that article. I keep coming back to this topic, lol.

[earlwyn]

See, I'm not so sure about that. Because both Nine and Ten are quite more angst-ridden than all the other Doctors due to the fact that Gallifrey is gone. I think it could be just as easily argued that the show is making the point that Hell, in this sense, is being seperated from God and Heaven and with the doubt that one should ever reunite with them. So it would be the complete opposite argument, to believe in God, to hope for an afterlife in Heaven, to not be left alone and wandering by yourself in the universe.

But yes. You should write it. It's a very interesting concept.

[t_eyla]

Hm, but I think the angst is just the struggle of the character with the realization that he's fine without God. He's fine without the Time Lords, he can still be himself, he's still the Doctor. He was right, and the Time Lords were wrong, and it's like having an argument with God, and at some point, God gets up and says, well, you know what? You're right. Have a universe, now deal with it, I'm leaving.

That would throw anyone a little. It did throw the Doctor, but he's starting to deal with it, I think. He's okay with Gallifrey being gone, or starting to be okay with it. At least that's what I see when I look at his character development from Nine into Ten and then through season 2-4.

[earlwyn]

Really? I see the struggle and resulting idolitry more as a result of the Doctor learning that he isn't fine without God. That the universe at large suffers for the demolation of the Time Lords. And that more than anything, he misses them greatly.

But I think that's personal preference and I can see your point as well. I just like to look at it as regret rather than uneasy adjustment.

[t_eyla]

Alan Rickman is hot.

[earlwyn]

Whatever. Daniel Craig is hotter.

[t_eyla]

>:( Stop saying that the Doctor is God. He's not.

[earlwyn]

Um. Wasn't. But Daniel Craig, man. Hot.

edited because comment was lacking sufficient Daniel Craig icon.

[t_eyla]

>:( Not God. As proved in my icon. Um.

[earlwyn]

HOT. Adkalsjdkl so hot. As, erm, not proved in mine.

[t_eyla]

*snort*

I want doughnuts now.