Don't Be That Guy.

[synecdochic]

I keep thinking about the discussions that have come up in the comments to my post about sex-positivism and performative sexuality and the concept of bystander consent, and I keep thinking about all the subtle little cues and clues I personally use to separate Okay from Skeevy when people approach me. Talking in the comments there made me realize

Comments

[griffen]

You know, I was reading along, nodding and saying "Okay, yeah... I can see that." I believe you when you say your life is hard. I believe you that you have these problems which I, as a white man, do not have. I was agreeing with everything you said, and then you dropped this into the mix:

The absolute last words you should ever say in a discussion of sexual assault are "men can be raped too".

Or "but men can be falsely accused of rape". Or, well, pretty much anything that attempts to shift the focus of the conversation, subtly or not-so-subtly, away from women's problems and onto men's problems.This is where you lose my support. This is where I walk away. This is where I say, "Forget it

[nineveh_uk]

Of course, it always depends ;-) And it depends on the initial conversation, its purpose, and its participants, and the purpose contribution of the new character. As hilarytamar put it, much is down to method and focus.

If apparent Western attitude toward, and dismissal of, the importance of maternal morbidity in sub-Saharan Africa were the subject under discussion then the Western experience might be relevant. But it would rather depend on how I made the point and how it was intended to advance the initial discussion. The risk of derailing it would still be high. Especially if the original conversation were being had by a group of midwives, sub-Saharan women, and European aid workers, and the person interjecting were a British obstetrician. As in

[apatheia_jane]

[nineveh_uk]

I agree - as long as the discussion is about “That Guy”, or about an experience in which all people involved can share.

if however, it's a conversation where someone has pointed out a problem commonly experienced by one group, then other people who have experienced the same problem absolutely get to share their experiences.

Again, true. Assuming that they don't do so intending to derail the discussion, which a lot of men saying "men are raped/subject to domestic violence, too" are often intending to do. In other words, "men are raped too" is used by Those Guys as a tool to silence women's experiences - my reading is that this is what

[hummingwolf]

I misread the original post and I apologized for the misreading later in the thread.

[hilarytamar]

Does that mean that I have to stay silent about my own experiences? Is that the only way to honor yours?

I think that's a really, really good question. I've been talking with a friend lately about safe spaces, and what counts as 'safe space' for each of us, and what we think ought to count as safe space, and who gets to draw those boundaries, and why--the whole kettle of fish, in other words. From my perspective, you Get It, which is to say you get what I, at least, would like men to get: you get the idea of women-only space, and you get the idea of equality. I'm wondering then about the specific point you make about safe space (rather than your more general point about who gets to contribute to broader discussions, in a more abstract sort of way--the question of whose opinion 'counts' when we all start talking about these issues).

When you say So which do you want? Equality? Or to be the special little snowflake? Pick one. You can't have both., my first reaction is to say, "sure I can, and so can you". And what I mean by that is

[alasandalack]

once again, i feel the need to point out that in no way is this thread only about women. or did synecdochic assume that only women would read the thread? if so, what are the various male readers doing here? it does seem they're welcome as long as they agree with whatever woman they may be responding to. do we really need to kowtow to one another? this is the internet, for heaven's sake, we're hardly going to come to fisticuffs. maybe both men and women should be permitted to express their opinions, without being censured for having done so.

[hilarytamar]

maybe both men and women should be permitted to express their opinions, without being censured for having done so.

My intent was to have done exactly that, namely to say that, so far, my view is that notions of safe space (along whatever axis) needn't automatically be in tension with notions of equality (along that axis); moreover, I was intending to invite discussion of/civil challenges to this specific view, from griffen in particular, if he was inclined to do so.

[alasandalack]

OK. i think my brain's fried :-) no offense intended.

[hilarytamar]

I know the feeling, believe me...

[griffen]

When you say So which do you want? Equality? Or to be the special little snowflake? Pick one. You can't have both., my first reaction is to say, "sure I can, and so can you". And what I mean by that is that we can have both in different contexts.

And this is where my own anger covered up an important, but unstated, point: What I meant is that you can't have both in the same space or context. If it's a women-only (or survivor-only, or person-of-color-only) space, then fine: be a special snowflake. But if it's an open space where there are participants from different venues, then we must operate as if it's an equal forum, where everyone has a voice and input.

I hope this makes more sense. I am a lot calmer now than I was when I first responded to synecdochic a few hours ago.

[hilarytamar]

But if it's an open space where there are participants from different venues, then we must operate as if it's an equal forum, where everyone has a voice and input.

Yes, absolutely, and one of your posts downstream made it clear to me that this was what you had in mind. I wasn't intending to make an objection to your original post as much as attempting to follow out one of your points.

[stefficus]

your anger was actually a little bit refreshing in some ways, and you've earned it. in spades. gawd. you DO deserve a cookie for being able to step back from it, accept apologies and explanations, and engage in the discussion. being able to do so is probably a sort of reward in itself, one that you also earned.

what's kinda refreshing about it is that it's so damn familiar to some (most?) of us, albeit from viewpoints along all different levels of the "being on the receiving end of That Guy" spectrum where "That Guy" and "us" can be of any and all genders. we're intending to have a lucid, open discussion, but at base a lot of us are just mad as hell when we forget where we are. having never been raped, i have the luxury of not being as pissed off as you have every right to be. your expressing that touched a chord, i guess. i... had a point to that, one that DIDN'T sound dumb, but it's moved on

[griffen]

I think I understood, even if the point moved on. :) Thank you; I needed badly to hear something like this last night when I got home. It's been a very rough weekend.

[synecdochic]

As a further attempt to mitigate some of that rough-weekendness, let me say that I've been really fucking happy to have this discussion with you, because you're pretty damn awesome.