Ah, none of the men were shown in the clips I saw. Except for one female doctor all the people in the know were men and all those that weren't were women (which I'm also happy to accept as being a marketing decision rather than a writing decision).
Then again, depending on the men, that may or may not make it better.
Basically it's either going to be The Handmaiden's Tale or it's going to be The Chronicles of Gor, and I'm not sure his best intentions are enough to move it into the former catagory (or that I'll want to watch it if it is; like Animal Farm, The Handmaiden's Tale wasn't something I'm dying to reread
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I hated A Doll's House. In high school, I had a long argument in which I thought the ending was almost bordering on fantasy, rather than the realism everyone else perceived it as. Might have had something to do with having recently escaped an abusive relationship at that point
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Ah, none of the men were shown in the clips I saw. I saw one female doctor who was going to give Echo a massage and otherwise all the people in the know were men and all those that weren't were women. The dynamic may change my impression (Dark Angel, despite all the other ways it was bad, had relatively equal-opportunity objectification for example).
What was great about Deadwood is that it was a naturalistic story with this believable character who was also subversive. Because it's a frontier town where a bunch of other norms (like, oh, laws) aren't enforced, though, I suppose its more believable that gendered norms are also flexible in the specific ways they portray as accepted by the people around her.
I totally think that the ways in which the female active are treated compared to how the male actives are treated (and the reactions/responsibilities of the other characters to the dynamic) may make or break the show
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Doctor Horrible was a story about one guy. He met some people, but he didn't really understand them, and as it was through his perspective, we didn't get the full story. That makes it a story about one (flawed) human, not an attack on women. It may be a good story or a bad story, we may or may not like it, but he should be able to tell a story that's not centered around feminism or the lack thereof.No, no, no, the thing is this. Of course not every story Joss writes has to be a masterpiece of feminism. And of course not every story can be everything it should be (where were the people of color in Dr. Horrible?(*) Ah well
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(Moderate spoiler alert for Angel, Buffy, and Firefly.)
I agree that it's silly to hold up Joss Whedon works as feminist pieces.
But, from a purely factual viewpoint, I balked at "powerful only if available to men." I can think of more counterexamples than examples. Anya was powerful only before she was available to men. Willow was more powerful after she stopped being available to men. Fred became powerful (in a sense) towards the end of Angel, and essentially stopped being available to men in the process--though I may be misremembering some of that plot. I don't remember if River had any romantic interests. Zoe was married and quintessentially faithful; I'm not sure if that counts as being available to men.
You're definitely right about Zoe; she's my favorite counter-example to a lot of things, though I don't know that I'd characterize her as "powerful". River is interesting; I think because I mentally classify her as "child" it didn't occur to me. It may well be that he's moved away from the issues I had with the Buffy-verser. Certainly Kitty Pride in his X-Men series is another counter-example, though she's contrasted with Emma Frost (who, to be fair, was that way long before he started writing her).
While Willow became more powerful after she'd stopped dating men the accompanying arc was also that she became more powerful as she became more comfortable with her sexuality and started dressing more provocatively (the Halloween episode with the costume shop made that point explicitly.) So even if she wasn't available to men on the show, she was available to the viewers; it's not the same thing, but I think it offered a similar message.
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Then again, depending on the men, that may or may not make it better.
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Ah, none of the men were shown in the clips I saw. I saw one female doctor who was going to give Echo a massage and otherwise all the people in the know were men and all those that weren't were women. The dynamic may change my impression (Dark Angel, despite all the other ways it was bad, had relatively equal-opportunity objectification for example).
What was great about Deadwood is that it was a naturalistic story with this believable character who was also subversive. Because it's a frontier town where a bunch of other norms (like, oh, laws) aren't enforced, though, I suppose its more believable that gendered norms are also flexible in the specific ways they portray as accepted by the people around her.
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I agree that it's silly to hold up Joss Whedon works as feminist pieces.
But, from a purely factual viewpoint, I balked at "powerful only if available to men." I can think of more counterexamples than examples. Anya was powerful only before she was available to men. Willow was more powerful after she stopped being available to men. Fred became powerful (in a sense) towards the end of Angel, and essentially stopped being available to men in the process--though I may be misremembering some of that plot. I don't remember if River had any romantic interests. Zoe was married and quintessentially faithful; I'm not sure if that counts as being available to men.
Reply
While Willow became more powerful after she'd stopped dating men the accompanying arc was also that she became more powerful as she became more comfortable with her sexuality and started dressing more provocatively (the Halloween episode with the costume shop made that point explicitly.) So even if she wasn't available to men on the show, she was available to the viewers; it's not the same thing, but I think it offered a similar message.
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