I hated A Doll's House. In high school, I had a long argument in which I thought the ending was almost bordering on fantasy, rather than the realism everyone else perceived it as. Might have had something to do with having recently escaped an abusive relationship at that point.
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When you write a story or show about the current real world, making it a non-sexualized post-gender situation would be disingenuous. So when you write a realistic contemporary story, you can play with gender, you can talk about gender, but to fundamentally change the game would make it into something else.
When you write a story about another world/time/place, you have the option to change things, depending on how it serves your story, depending on what you want to talk about. But there will usually be anti-feminist concepts in a show-- either you want to avoid talking about it, and use the status quo, or you need to create some sort of conflict in order to talk about it.
Look, Joss Whedon's work should not be held up as The Ultimate Feminist Work, and to do so is unfair to him. He wants to tell some stories. Some will involve feminist characters, others won't. Doctor Horrible was a story about one guy. He met some people, but he didn't really understand them, and as it was through his perspective, we didn't get the full story. That makes it a story about one (flawed) human, not an attack on women. It may be a good story or a bad story, we may or may not like it, but he should be able to tell a story that's not centered around feminism or the lack thereof.
As he's pointed out, the story should NOT be that his characters are treated in a way that's more feminist than average, the story should be about everyone else who isn't even trying.
Look, I haven't seen Dollhouse yet. (Or Deadwood. Really, I haven't seen any of the -wood shows. Not even Torchwood, which I have been specifically told I wood would enjoy.) From what I've heard, however, It's not just the women who are actives, there are also men. And, as Joss has said, you have to take away control to tell a story about regaining control.
It might be a bad show. The interaction between Joss and Fox has been bad before, and based on the back and forth they had to do, and the changes that were made in how they did or did not discuss sexual exploitation on a major network may have killed it. The concept even before Fox got to it might have been flawed. It might be something that would make a better book, comic book, movie. But we don't know yet.
Ah, none of the men were shown in the clips I saw. I saw one female doctor who was going to give Echo a massage and otherwise all the people in the know were men and all those that weren't were women. The dynamic may change my impression (Dark Angel, despite all the other ways it was bad, had relatively equal-opportunity objectification for example).
What was great about Deadwood is that it was a naturalistic story with this believable character who was also subversive. Because it's a frontier town where a bunch of other norms (like, oh, laws) aren't enforced, though, I suppose its more believable that gendered norms are also flexible in the specific ways they portray as accepted by the people around her.
I totally think that the ways in which the female active are treated compared to how the male actives are treated (and the reactions/responsibilities of the other characters to the dynamic) may make or break the show.
I am heartened by the fact that just about every interview I've heard/read with Joss about Dollhouse doesn't have him pushing off the question, but instead saying that it's very tricky and is supposed to be uncomfortable, bad, and in the "dark place", and also pointing out that there are male actives.
While we're talking about feminism in mainstream Fox shows that have creepy sci-fi characteristics, have you been watching Fringe? I started because I like Josh Jackson, but I've mostly been focusing on the treatment of science, and the line between science fiction (mostly good) and promoting bad science (boo!), and which side of the line Fringe is on (my boyfriend refuses to watch because of the name alone, I think) that I haven't been paying much attention to the gender roles.
(.... other than the last couple minutes of the last episode which made me want to violently murder the main character. Also, the writers.)
Doctor Horrible was a story about one guy. He met some people, but he didn't really understand them, and as it was through his perspective, we didn't get the full story. That makes it a story about one (flawed) human, not an attack on women. It may be a good story or a bad story, we may or may not like it, but he should be able to tell a story that's not centered around feminism or the lack thereof.
No, no, no, the thing is this. Of course not every story Joss writes has to be a masterpiece of feminism. And of course not every story can be everything it should be (where were the people of color in Dr. Horrible?(*) Ah well).
But the premise of Dr. Horrible was: two men fight, there's a girl they're fighting over, her role is to be meek, to have a cause that ultimately gets taken over by one of the men, and to advance the men's character development by dating one and, ultimately, dying. It's not that it lacked feminism, it's that it actively embodied many of the worst traits of anti-feminist sentiment.
All of which is admittedly beside the point of how Dollhouse will be, and I agree that it's too soon to judge, and judging from Fox's marketing is somewhat unfair. (I've been ignoring previews, since they're not going to make me watch it; I'll watch it anyway.) So we'll see.
(*) Or Firefly. Or for that matter Buffy, set in the only city in southern California with no one Hispanic (or Asian?).
Both of the guys in Dr. Horrible view her as... not exactly part of the equation. And because she's not involved, their stupidity kills her. I don't believe we see enough of the character to know enough about her at all. I guess I just don't see how the story would be fundamentally different if they were fighting over a cute boy, other than you wouldn't be able to call it anti-feminist.
Mostly I think it's silly to argue over Dr. Horrible because it's so short (compared to his other projects) that it's very easy to read anything you want into it, and very hard to prove anything based on the very short text.
Regarding people of color- One could easily say that the Asian Groupie doesn't count-- except she's also one of the writers, Maurissa Tancharoen. Firefly was certainly better- Gina Torres, Ron Glass... I suppose Morena Baccarin is a bit more complicated, with Italian heritage but being born and raised for a while in Brazil. There were any number of extras from different cultures. Buffy? .... Yeah, my (flawed) memory puts that one as pretty bad.
I guess I just don't see how the story would be fundamentally different if they were fighting over a cute boy...
...except they aren't. Joss needed a prop for them to fight over and ultimately destroy, and rather than using a bag of money or a stone idol, he used a girl-who sings better than a stone idol, but has as much depth. (Well, and if it were a boy rather than a girl, that would (a) at least be a variation on the tired theme and (b) avoid having the only woman in the story be defined by her relationship to the men. Ah, right, other than the groupies...also defined by their relationship to the men.)
The fact that she's not part of the equation is kind of the point.
As for people of color-for that one, Dr. Horrible is short enough and with a small enough cast that their (general) absence doesn't bother me. Buffy is long enough and with a large enough cast (i.e. including any guest stars and recurring extras) that it does. Firefly...all right, time to lose all geek cred and admit I haven't seen Firefly yet. My understanding, though, is that China is something of a dominant culture, and yet there's this fairly stark lack of Chinese actors.
I've never thought about the lack of diversity in Buffy before, and now that it's been pointed out, I do find it troublesome. I find it less troublesome, however, having seen Firefly.
The actors I've mentioned make up two or three (depending on if we're counting Morena) of the eight main (human) characters. There are a few other characters associated with the tv series and movie of color (including my fav, Chiwetel Ejiofor), but it is odd that there aren't as many Asians throughout. I wonder if it was planned as a later plot point, since I have this itching that there were Asians in the occasional sea of extras. Time to break out the DVDs.
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When you write a story or show about the current real world, making it a non-sexualized post-gender situation would be disingenuous. So when you write a realistic contemporary story, you can play with gender, you can talk about gender, but to fundamentally change the game would make it into something else.
When you write a story about another world/time/place, you have the option to change things, depending on how it serves your story, depending on what you want to talk about. But there will usually be anti-feminist concepts in a show-- either you want to avoid talking about it, and use the status quo, or you need to create some sort of conflict in order to talk about it.
Look, Joss Whedon's work should not be held up as The Ultimate Feminist Work, and to do so is unfair to him. He wants to tell some stories. Some will involve feminist characters, others won't. Doctor Horrible was a story about one guy. He met some people, but he didn't really understand them, and as it was through his perspective, we didn't get the full story. That makes it a story about one (flawed) human, not an attack on women. It may be a good story or a bad story, we may or may not like it, but he should be able to tell a story that's not centered around feminism or the lack thereof.
As he's pointed out, the story should NOT be that his characters are treated in a way that's more feminist than average, the story should be about everyone else who isn't even trying.
Look, I haven't seen Dollhouse yet. (Or Deadwood. Really, I haven't seen any of the -wood shows. Not even Torchwood, which I have been specifically told I wood would enjoy.) From what I've heard, however, It's not just the women who are actives, there are also men. And, as Joss has said, you have to take away control to tell a story about regaining control.
It might be a bad show. The interaction between Joss and Fox has been bad before, and based on the back and forth they had to do, and the changes that were made in how they did or did not discuss sexual exploitation on a major network may have killed it. The concept even before Fox got to it might have been flawed. It might be something that would make a better book, comic book, movie. But we don't know yet.
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Ah, none of the men were shown in the clips I saw. I saw one female doctor who was going to give Echo a massage and otherwise all the people in the know were men and all those that weren't were women. The dynamic may change my impression (Dark Angel, despite all the other ways it was bad, had relatively equal-opportunity objectification for example).
What was great about Deadwood is that it was a naturalistic story with this believable character who was also subversive. Because it's a frontier town where a bunch of other norms (like, oh, laws) aren't enforced, though, I suppose its more believable that gendered norms are also flexible in the specific ways they portray as accepted by the people around her.
Reply
I am heartened by the fact that just about every interview I've heard/read with Joss about Dollhouse doesn't have him pushing off the question, but instead saying that it's very tricky and is supposed to be uncomfortable, bad, and in the "dark place", and also pointing out that there are male actives.
While we're talking about feminism in mainstream Fox shows that have creepy sci-fi characteristics, have you been watching Fringe? I started because I like Josh Jackson, but I've mostly been focusing on the treatment of science, and the line between science fiction (mostly good) and promoting bad science (boo!), and which side of the line Fringe is on (my boyfriend refuses to watch because of the name alone, I think) that I haven't been paying much attention to the gender roles.
(.... other than the last couple minutes of the last episode which made me want to violently murder the main character. Also, the writers.)
Reply
No, no, no, the thing is this. Of course not every story Joss writes has to be a masterpiece of feminism. And of course not every story can be everything it should be (where were the people of color in Dr. Horrible?(*) Ah well).
But the premise of Dr. Horrible was: two men fight, there's a girl they're fighting over, her role is to be meek, to have a cause that ultimately gets taken over by one of the men, and to advance the men's character development by dating one and, ultimately, dying. It's not that it lacked feminism, it's that it actively embodied many of the worst traits of anti-feminist sentiment.
All of which is admittedly beside the point of how Dollhouse will be, and I agree that it's too soon to judge, and judging from Fox's marketing is somewhat unfair. (I've been ignoring previews, since they're not going to make me watch it; I'll watch it anyway.) So we'll see.
(*) Or Firefly. Or for that matter Buffy, set in the only city in southern California with no one Hispanic (or Asian?).
Reply
Mostly I think it's silly to argue over Dr. Horrible because it's so short (compared to his other projects) that it's very easy to read anything you want into it, and very hard to prove anything based on the very short text.
Regarding people of color- One could easily say that the Asian Groupie doesn't count-- except she's also one of the writers, Maurissa Tancharoen. Firefly was certainly better- Gina Torres, Ron Glass... I suppose Morena Baccarin is a bit more complicated, with Italian heritage but being born and raised for a while in Brazil. There were any number of extras from different cultures. Buffy? .... Yeah, my (flawed) memory puts that one as pretty bad.
Reply
...except they aren't. Joss needed a prop for them to fight over and ultimately destroy, and rather than using a bag of money or a stone idol, he used a girl-who sings better than a stone idol, but has as much depth. (Well, and if it were a boy rather than a girl, that would (a) at least be a variation on the tired theme and (b) avoid having the only woman in the story be defined by her relationship to the men. Ah, right, other than the groupies...also defined by their relationship to the men.)
The fact that she's not part of the equation is kind of the point.
As for people of color-for that one, Dr. Horrible is short enough and with a small enough cast that their (general) absence doesn't bother me. Buffy is long enough and with a large enough cast (i.e. including any guest stars and recurring extras) that it does. Firefly...all right, time to lose all geek cred and admit I haven't seen Firefly yet. My understanding, though, is that China is something of a dominant culture, and yet there's this fairly stark lack of Chinese actors.
Reply
The actors I've mentioned make up two or three (depending on if we're counting Morena) of the eight main (human) characters. There are a few other characters associated with the tv series and movie of color (including my fav, Chiwetel Ejiofor), but it is odd that there aren't as many Asians throughout. I wonder if it was planned as a later plot point, since I have this itching that there were Asians in the occasional sea of extras. Time to break out the DVDs.
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