A whole lot of isms, but mostly heterosexism.

[strange_tomato]

Given that this Sunday, May 17, is the International Day Against Homophobia, it's interesting that I was recently called out for being heterosexist. To my face, by a lesbian. I was pretty embarrassed. (Not that it would be any better to have this pointed out in another way, but I felt pretty careless.)

Comments

[aledstrange]

It's amazing how easy it is to be heterosexist. Unlike homophobia, you do it by default, by doing nothing.
The problem is when you (general you) get accused, directly or by insinuations, of being discriminatory/homophobic, by someone who doesn't know you, for doing nothing, as not being constantly mentioning it.

For example I live in Miami, and there's a huge LGBT movement here specially in some areas (not so much in other parts of fl tho). I have lots of gay/lesbians friends and so does almost everyone I know. Same I see with my daughter and her friends, who are in high school, where they have a strong lgbt acceptance in general too.

Of course there is always close minded people between adults and bullying between teens, but in general for us its a pretty normal matter, so on that sense, mentioning it too much may sound slightly discriminatory too. (and I mean, mentioning, as in it pointing it out for being a difference, not as in normally talking about the topic

[strange_tomato]

Yeah, I'm speaking more about heterosexism than homophobia there. I can be heterosexist be simply not including any reference to LGBT in something, and thus rendering them invisible. Or saying something that portrays heterosexuality to be the default. I don't see anything wrong with someone objecting to it. It was totally in her right to point out that I was negating her existence by not including her, I think. It's just not always easy to keep on top of those things.

I see what you mean about it being a non-issue for you if it's a part of your everyday life, but I assume you don't go around and never mention it, right? That's the difference. It obviously comes up on it's own in casual reference, like mentioning someone's boyfriend, etc. That's different than the example of the poster, I think

[aledstrange]

I'm speaking more about heterosexism than homophobia there
So am I, but let me rephrase then ?
The problem is when heterosexism, as in generalizing that everyone is straight, is automatically called out as an homophobic take. Some time generalizations are just 'that', and not bad indented, but can be taken wrongly very easily. (plus I'm sure, you could put a same sex couple on an adv/poster like that, and someone else will come out and criticize anyways, because the same sex couple is present. It's a delicate topic, unfortunately, people get offended one way or another)

And no, I didn't say I never mention it, just that I don't tend to consider a special kind of difference that needs to be constantly pointed out. I mean, for example, you say :"you get mixed results when you suggest that someone's baby might actually grow up to be gay" TRUE! Of course you do, but IMO you get mixed results if you suggest someone's baby might actually grow up to be all sorts of things (gay, straight, republican, democrat, theist, atheist, Jew, catholic

[smjoshsims]

Firstly, this topic is very, very interesting.

Secondly, the lesbian is very very fresh for calling you heterosexist- which I didn't even know existed but I am aware of now. It's weird that by simply not choosing to include a same sex couple you suddenly become a villain since that's the norm EVERYWHERE- and you can't hurt people's delicate sensibilities by showing a same sex couple, EVER. (And plus, how could they expect you to show a same sex couple using old people? Don't they know that gay people don't age?!?!

As a creator and reader of Sim Stories, I don't think about it, to be honest. I see characters as characters, I don't think about their sexuality. For example, Franny is FRANNY, when describing him I never mention that he's gay. It's just not important to me. I can see why people would notice if NO ONE was gay though.

On a random note, I always roll for my Sims sexuality using ACR- even if they're legacy heirs. *shrug*

Interesting topic, soul.

[strange_tomato]

Glad you think so. I thought it was pretty interesting (especially being on the side that's being criticized this time

[ikichi]

That's a fantastic compromise. Even if there were an even number of het elders, how many of them would be divorced/widdowed and never remarried? The couple-centric bit is another good point.

[strange_tomato]

Yeah, once she said it, I totally agreed. We just hadn't thought of that because we were more focused on showing them happy and active, and mostly those images were of couples.

I did manage to find some that were better, I think.

[allysonsimming]

Hm. This is a really interesting topic, I think. Like you said, it's so easy to fall into the trap of simply not considering a certain group in our everyday actions.

However, I think the person who called you out was kind of out of line. Unlike homophobia, heterosexism is more just simply not thinking -- there was obviously nothing intentionally offensive about your community poster! I think in this case, a simple, "Gee it's a shame that there aren't any same-sex couples on the poster" would have sufficed.

That being said, I also think a lot of people get way, way too worked up about their groups not being properly represented. Obviously it's important to have people of all different races and backgrounds represented in popular culture, but at the same time, it's simply not possible to represent every social group ALL of the time. In a situation like this, it just really doesn't seem like that big of a deal -- it's a poster for a community event, not a TV show that continually ignores the existence of homosexuality.

[leskuh]

I kind of agree and disagree with this? Like, I definitely don't think I would have called Strange heterosexist just because she didn't think about homosexuality and equal representation this one time, but the poster itself probably does come across as heterosexist.

And I agree that yeah, it is impossible to represent every single group, but I can imagine that if you belong to a minority that is constantly not represented it will eventually get to you. I think the poster DOES matter - even if it's not a HUGE deal. The little things are meaningful.

Also, what I'd really love to see is homosexuality dealt with in cartoons or kids television. I know that seems sort of random, but it's really something that you don't get to see and it'd be nice for kids to be presented with openly gay characters to relate to. :\

[allysonsimming]

I was more thinking that there are probably a LOT of groups that aren't represented in culture -- for example, in the United States people of Asian and African-American descent are usually represented in most instances, but homosexuals as well as Native Americans, people of Middle Eastern and Indian descent, etc. are often not represented. It seems to me that you'd be hard-pressed to find something that represents EVERYONE at all times

[leskuh]

Hee, yeah I gotcha. I know it would be next to impossible to represent every group or anything like that. I don't think Strange should HAVE to do it either, because well... it'd take years and nothing would get done obviously. So I'm sure the poster is fine and that after awhile it's just getting nitpicky. But I can also understand why the other person who wasn't being represented (especially if this is something that happens A LOT) would speak up and say: "Hey, you forgot about me."

And yeah, there are bigger issues, but I don't think that takes away from some of the smaller things either. And it's always good when someone makes aware of something that you honestly just hadn't thought of. So I think it's good that the lady spoke up, but yeah I definitely would never say that Strange is heterosexist because... she's really not. Just talking to her you can tell that she is very aware of sexuality and representation and all that good stuff.

[leskuh]

I think it's good that she mentioned it, but I definitely wouldn't call you heterosexist. Yes, you overlooked sexuality this one time, but you're usually very aware of it. I try to be, but I do definitely default to heterosexism most of the time, which I'm trying to work on

[madame_ugly]

I'm flip flopping here. I'm not sold on the "heterosexist" thing. So if you don't go around making sure you've gone to great pains to include any and every race/religion/gender/sexual orientation. . .see where I'm going with this. . .then your automatically "anti" or "ist" toward the one you forgot

[allysonsimming]

So if you don't go around making sure you've gone to great pains to include any and every race/religion/gender/sexual orientation. . .see where I'm going with this. . .then your automatically "anti" or "ist" toward the one you forgot?

It's like you have to get pre-offended at everything to make sure you don't accidentally step on a toe you may not have even known existed.

This is what I was trying to communicate, but you did so much more eloquently. :)

[ikichi]

Well, I think a better example of "heterosexism" is the first one I was exposed to, courtesy of Alison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For.

Toni and Clarice are about to have their commitment ceremony (at least a decade before their son is born), and the staff of Madwimmin books are discussing what gifts their giving. Mo (anti-marriage) makes several disparaging remarks about her friends' choice. Jezanna calls her on it, "Mo, if I didn't know better, I'd say you were being heterosexist!"

Mo sputters, "Heterosexist?! Me?!"

"You're behaving just like you've been programmed to: Two women love each other, and want to celebrate that love publicly, and you bash them for it."

It's more of mindfulness than being overly pc. And heck, I've done it too, and I'm queer- by assuming someone was straight, or that they would/wouldn't be into something because of gender expectations. And you'd think as often I've been the only black chick at a goth club I'd no better than that.

[madame_ugly]

(warning, I don't follow the strip you mentioned, though I have seen it once or twice)

But if Mo is anti-marriage isn't her negativity focused on MARRIAGE regardless of what gender combo is being married? And if that's the case, how is it heterosexist? And couldn't Jezanna just tell her to stop being MEAN (in general by pissing on their friends parade) then try to drag some ism/ist into it?