The Hands of the Gods in Thick as Thieves (SPOILERS under cut)

[piartemis18]

Hello everyone! Been watching the community for several years and figured it was time to log back in to LJ and join up proper, so hi. May see some of you Salt Lake folks tomorrow night

Comments

[agh_4]

Yes! Thanks for making a post on this topic! The thing with the splinter made me yell when I reread it. Also, in this parallel to the underworld story, the miller's dog is Unse-sek, right? (Unse-sek to Costis, Unse-sek squared to the rodents)

I agree that the farmer they meet on the road is Immakuk. I also ended up thinking that he (as the wine merchant) is the one who sets fire to their boat on the river. His and Ennikar's mission seems to be to keep Kamet and Costis together, which usually ends up meaning preventing Kamet from taking off on his own (both as he had planned on the river and in Sukir, and when he believes Costis dead in the well).

So, what they do is definitely helps Gen's machinations, and therefore benefits the old gods of the little peninsula, but I ... don't think I'm ready to say that Immakuk and Ennikar are getting involved for that reason. Because the implications of that would be HUGE! Mede gods/heroes (although maybe, since their stories may predate the empire, they don't have an attachment to the Medes) serving

[beth_shulman]

Are they not really gods? Because the way they came "alive" through mythtelling, they felt like Hespira, etc.

although I suppose they are their own messengers

That made me shiver a little.

Knife Dance

[zarz29]

I have to ask - what is Knife Dance and/or where can I find it? I thought I had found all the Queen's Thief short stories, but my Google-fu is failing me and I can't seem to find any mentions of it anywhere. Can any of you point me in the right direction?

Re: Knife Dance

[agh_4]

There are two new short stories in the paperback editions that came out this spring! "Knife Dance" is in QoA and "Wine Shop" is in KoA. They're both worth reading, of course, but "Knife Dance" is especially cool.

Re: Knife Dance

[checkers65477]

zarz29, I just added the two new short stories to a Sounis post. You can read them here. (You have to be a member of Sounis to see them.)

https://sounis.livejournal.com/736747.html?view=15768299#t15768299

[mander_lee]

(This is getting dramatic. Does what I'm getting at make sense to anyone else?)

Yes!! I've tried to think about the mythology in the book, as strange as it seems, to be little more than Red Bull for plot. Something that started to bother me in KoA, but was only magnified in TaT was how every culture seems to be secure in their beliefs somehow of their own gods, and have very little conflict in terms of religion. I do wonder why people aren't more... defensive of their gods. Is everyone just in agreement that *all* the gods could potentially co-exist, and merely choose to worship the ones that belong to their pantheon? So far, I haven't seen arguments of "My gods are real and yours aren't!" type of thing. And TaT definitely confirms that all the gods are real.

[beth_shulman]

Do you think they all believe in their gods as real figures, though? I think most of the population is still convinced they're borne of legends. I always go back to that line - maybe in TT? - about the gods' names being used for cursing and little else.

Perhaps it's like when Costis tried to defend Gen in KoA, and the rest of the Guard laughed at him. They don't have the personal experience, so they're not inclined to believe.

[mander_lee]

Oh yes, perhaps you're right. Nobody would really get defensive over something they don't believe in. But what about the Eddisians, many of whom do believe? I wonder what they think about the other gods being real then?

[beth_shulman]

I think that the last book is going to have to address these types of questions!

Which is to say, in response to your question: I don't know!

[ninedaysaqueen]

It said in QoA that most people don't believe any gods are real and they're more cultural symbols.

"People used their gods for swearing and little else."

However, most of our narrators already believed they were real or come to believe over the course of the book.

Gen, Sophos, Helen, and Irene didn't seem to believe till the gods started showing up and meddling in their lives. Gen even laughs at the concept of the Eddisians believing in their gods.

Costis was one of the few who already believed. I'm not sure about Kamet.

I wonder if it's one of those things that has power only when people believe in it? I watch too much Doctor Who...

[savithny]

I don't get a strong impression that Kamet believes deeply in "the gods." He likes the stories and is proud of his ability to translate both the words and the *meaning* of the stories into Attolian.

But the particular gods of these stories are far closer to heroes/demigods of the ancient world - they're not world-creators, they're larger-than-life heroes with mythic-level powers, so "believing" in them is a different level of faith than the Eddisians faith in Hephestia (for instance).

[agh_4]

Red Bull for the plot, nice. :) I am torn between accepting them as that, because it rings true to me and emphasizes the importance/strength of Kamet and Costis's relationship, and trying to puzzle out exactly how and why the different pantheons would collaborate, which is very open-ended (this whole post is helpful, though)!

There must be some people out there in Eddis/Attolia/anywhere who have to come to terms with other countries' gods existing. It would be really interesting if the last book expanded on their coexistence and/or common goals; I hope it does!

[sclerotia]

They don't have to defend their gods. They assume there are multiple gods and may worship different gods at different times. The gods aren't running a contest with the winner having the most worshipers, the most exclusive worshipers, or the most sacrifices. Costis wore a ring in honor of Miras, but he also prayed to Philia as he ran to Eugenides rescue. Eugenides offers to pay off Costis' debt without knowing to which God it will be dedicated and when he realizes it is not one of his gods says only "I see. I suppose it's good to curry favor where you can. You never know who might rescue you when you overreach."

[smallsotong]

I agree 100% with your observation that Immakuk and Ennikar predate the Mede Empire. The empire is relatively young (Attolia mentions in QoA that her megaron is older than the empire). And I think I remember Kamet mentioning: (1) that he personally translated some of the original texts; and (2) there were missing parts to the poems because one of the ancient tablets (?) was missing. I don't have my book with me so correct me if I'm misremembering. But I think there's good evidence that the tales are significantly older than Medea, even though some aspects of those tales have made it into popular stories/plays within the empire.

Also, the real Ennikar seems surprised that Costis knows of the stories. So maybe even the popular stories are not that widespread within the empire?

I think it’s likely that Immakuk and Ennikar are from an much older culture/religion that existed before the Medes. Maybe its remnants were swallowed up by the Empire, maybe it declined long before the rise of Medea.

[agh_4]

Yes! Thanks for the evidence! I just read all of the Jamey Dodger discussions at once, and I like how you put it there, as well. About Ennikar's surprise -- it also indicates that although he and Immakuk are keeping track of Costis and Kamet, it's not like they're tuning in to their story times or paying attention to which play they attended on the day they met. Huh.

[agh_4]

Hmm, an alternative interpretation might be that his surprise is due to being recognized by fever-Costis, rather than because his stories are known.

Immakuk and Ennikar also come across more as culture heroes or demigods rather than gods, whereas the gods of the Little Peninsula are proper gods. I wonder if the extent of their powers is also more limited. Their influence in TaT is more along the lines of well-timed advice and being in the right place at the right time, rather than any direct manipulation of the physical world or giving direct instructions like in TT, QoA, KoA.