I absolutely agree with your view on Christianity being smart to establish itself as the only way to heaven. I've always been irritated by the fact that while in Buddhism you just need to be virtuous and kind and good, Christianity accepts all kinds of people and whatever they do as long as they have faith in God and such.
Oh well. Religion = major life crisis for me. Wonder when I'll ever figure it out.
Aha, I get that. This guy in my group yesterday also brought it up as a pet peeve for him, the reason he couldn't accept Christianity fully.
Well, my problem with that is that, you know, if you're really going to talk about having a God, a Creator, then you don't get to choose what you like about his rules and all? No one understood this point when I tried to explain it yesterday, but I was kind of incoherent. I mean, we don't 'like' Christianity because it tells you that oh, good deeds are irrelevant, and all, and other religions are fake, right? That's a reason for us rejecting Christianity as a religion. For me, if you're looking for an absolute God, that's rubbish. It's like saying, Oh, I don't like Christianity because it tells me not to kill, or have adulterous sex, and I want to. If Christianity is true, if there is an Ultimate Being and a Creator of All Things, then we don't get to choose the rules we like and ignore the rules we don't. If God does exist, and his Ten Commandments are true, then I'm sorry, you just have to
( ... )
I just have to ask why - why does it irritate you that Christianity accepts all people regardless of good or bad?
Most people would say that that is the most beautiful part of Christianity - the acknowledgement that we are all flawed and that despite all that and all our evil God is loving and merciful enough to redeem us and allow us into heaven.
Myself, my problem with Christianity is the converse of this issue - that no matter how good you are, if you don't have that basic faith or belief in God and Jesus, you don't make it up there. I can understand that God's love is bountiful enough to forgive and redeem all sinners - but I can't understand how despite all this love he has he can bear to condemn ordinary people to eternal suffering. If God can do that, in my mind God can't be good. If God can't be good, why am I following him at all?
Also please do not react hostile-ly to this comment. I know you know how I feel about religion right now, so there's no need to, you know, call me out for blindly defending faith or anything.
I think this was directed more at Wan Hui? But I'll just contribute my two cents' worth :D
I think what Wan Hui meant about the whole, Christianity annoys me because unlike other religions, it doesn't let you into heaven merely based on your good deeds, is really what you're saying about how your problem with Christianity is the fact that it doesn't matter how good you are, in the end you can only enter heaven through faith. I think both of you are referring to the same thing - that good deeds, being a good person doesn't matter, only your faith does.
I think that's the sticking point for a lot of Christians I know; Flo once told me that she wanted me to be a Christian, because if not I'll go to hell, and she really didn't want me to - and I didn't really know how to respond, because the sentiments are genuine, just misguided (to me, because I don't believe that.) However, two responses?
Gabriel told me that there is the point of Christianity. You can't just be good because the point isn't your sins; you can't atone for them, no
( ... )
You know, Kyle. I think my brain's rotting. Or maybe it's just that it's 1:25am. Either way, I just read that WHOLE bit on religion, and I didn't process much at first read. Meh.
Why are you so cheem. It's so cool that you can do that (like, write so much :O), cause I definitely can't. (:
When you say Christianity cripples it's clientèle with the doctrine of original sin, you mean?
For me, Christianity isn't really about religion, in fact, that's the worst thing, cause it brings about stereotype to everyone else. Personally, I feel it's about relationship with God, and that's really precious, cause it's intimate and God's way of showing me he loves me, above everything I've done.
The best part for me, is that no matter what I do, He's still there to love me. And I can talk to him, you know. I don't have to work for it. Nobody has to work for it.
Right now, I'm trusting Him for making true His purpose in my life, even through having doubts, because at the end of the day I have faith that He'll make everything work in the end.
Also, about having faith, it's not something you are immediately forced into when you become a Christian. I choose to have faith because after learning about God and everything, I just believe that He IS someone I can rely on, through everything
( ... )
The lousy thing, Angie, about all the Christians I know is that they're all such beautiful people like you D: It makes it hard for me to reject the faith, really, because - there's something about the idea of faith, a God that's innately attractive to humans, I think, and I'm not immune to that, either
( ... )
Mmmm. I get it. (: The feeling God as a concept thing.
There are definitely parts of religion that are too restricting. Hmm. I guess it's a personal decision what to regard as correct/important and what's not.
Christianity CAN bring out the worst in some people, I agree! Phoo. ): It's cool how Christianity can bring out the best in people, like haha it's inspiring. I try to be good. Hahaha. Oh my. :D
Well, about God existing, I guess it's something you've got to think about yourself? Idk haha. Woah.
I will visit you guys in Jblk one day! It's so lovely and windy! :D
I DON'T KNOW OMG. HOW. DO YOU STILL WANT TO? I think I'm just going to go down for the interview, see what happens. Doesn't hurt to keep my options open, yes?
i don't think i will.. it's just too much effort. and um. i sorta asked around. my friend in hwach says that when people transfer over they give all sorts of nonsense about going there for the humanities programme, but that's just rubbish. they basically just go there cause no one liked them in secondary school. and the hwach people KNOW that. so they essentially treat you like crap.
and it's uh, kinda ironic my dear. cause going to hwach means entering the humanities programme, which ultimately CUTS OFF your options, cause yknow, arts closes off more doors in terms of uni courses than science does.
i personally think that you should either go into science or go do sthg like ib/uwc where it's this general thing and you study everything - both humanities and sciences. doing arts in jc is basically for 2 kinds of people - those who know for sure they want to do arts, and those that fail at science so badly they have no choice but to do arts. hahah.
- Argh, that's lousy. Clara didn't mention anything about that - SHE WAS FROM BASKETBALL DO YOU KNOW. DO YOU REMEMBER HER? She was Sec Four when we were Sec One O: I don't know; my seniors went! And I wouldn't call them not-well-liked.
- True. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to take Sciences in JC, though. Quite. Unless like, I suddenly score full marks for Chem/Bio during EYAs, which is so possible, right. Pretty set on Humanities, I think. Plus, in Hwach a lot of people drop math. RJ will probably flail around in horror if you tried, idk.
WHAT IF I WANT TO STUDY PHILOSOPHY/ECONOMICS. I don't know - still aiming for UWC/IB, but Sciences in RJC is pretty much definitely out, so. Really will see how. I think BOTH OPTIONS (a)know for sure want to do arts, and b)) FAIL AT SCIENCE BADLY) apply to me xD
PH3AR THE FOLLOWING TL;DR COMMENT!!melancholiseJuly 19 2009, 14:28:24 UTC
Background on my perspective: I was born and raised in a Christian family. Ever since I was a kid I have been fed with stories about God's love and wisdom. But I didn't really accept Christ till I was thirteen; I became really devout and pious for about two years. Around the middle of sec three, I started doubting; around the beginning of sec four, I started seriously questioning. Currently, I am extremely confused and still searching for answers.
Your view of Christianity seems highly cynical. This may just be byproduct of all the beliefs I've been fed since young, but despite everything I still really, really believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven. It's a conviction I cannot let go of. I believe that humanity is fundamentally flawed; that I am fundamentally flawed. "Christianity sells salvation"? I understand but disagree with the perspective that it's like an economic competition to get the most believers. Ideally, people evangelise not because they want to - win the race, or something, but because they genuinely
( ... )
Re: PH3AR THE FOLLOWING TL;DR COMMENT!!nguiJuly 19 2009, 16:02:59 UTC
I love you Grace.
Totally random, but I miss talking to you about stuff like we did in Sec 2. Haha, everyone changes I guess. ):
<3
Omg who is the pastor who said philosophy is evil? That is just- omg I don't know what to say! THAT IS GROSS WHY DID HE SAY THAT. DD: Totaly disagree, my mind is screaming out. QUESTIONING IS GOOD! /exasperated sigh.
Actually some of these sins, they have pretty convincing reasons behind why they're considered sins. Oh, btw, you know the bible does NOT mention anything about masturbation at all? One opinion (BUT THERE ISN'T A right OPINION, it's how you interpret it) by a pastor called Kris Vallotton (who wrote a book called Purity. I like it.) is that the no-mention is cause it's open to negotiation with God. There's a paragraph in his Purity book addressing that. Haha. Had to say that.
Re: PH3AR THE FOLLOWING TL;DR COMMENT!!nguiJuly 19 2009, 16:04:22 UTC
Oh, and when I wonder at stuff like in your last paragraph, I just get all boggled. Like, imagine if God never ever even made the earth and everything. Imagine if he did something totally different!
Re: PH3AR THE FOLLOWING TL;DR COMMENT!!melancholiseJuly 23 2009, 15:33:35 UTC
Oh boy I just realised I didn't reply this :O Sorry!
I know the Bible says nothing about masturbation but after doing research and thinking about it I concluded that: since God made sex and sexual pleasure to be enjoyed strictly between marriage, as a form of procreation and blessed union between man and wife alone, masturbation would count as outside of His intended purposes for sex and thus, if not explicitly wrong, still a form of "second-rate" sex. Imperfect. Unclean.
Convincing reasons for these sins to be considered sins? I'd really like to know. I am leaning towards viewing them as "victimless crimes" - by which I mean that they don't actually hurt anybody. Not like murder, stealing, adultery, abuse etc would. (But I guess they hurt God, huh? Heh.)
And yes - we can't imagine, because we're not God. This is why it is so hard to resolve debates about Christianity. Because in the end, it just boils down to faith.
Comments 32
Oh well. Religion = major life crisis for me. Wonder when I'll ever figure it out.
Reply
Well, my problem with that is that, you know, if you're really going to talk about having a God, a Creator, then you don't get to choose what you like about his rules and all? No one understood this point when I tried to explain it yesterday, but I was kind of incoherent. I mean, we don't 'like' Christianity because it tells you that oh, good deeds are irrelevant, and all, and other religions are fake, right? That's a reason for us rejecting Christianity as a religion. For me, if you're looking for an absolute God, that's rubbish. It's like saying, Oh, I don't like Christianity because it tells me not to kill, or have adulterous sex, and I want to. If Christianity is true, if there is an Ultimate Being and a Creator of All Things, then we don't get to choose the rules we like and ignore the rules we don't. If God does exist, and his Ten Commandments are true, then I'm sorry, you just have to ( ... )
Reply
Most people would say that that is the most beautiful part of Christianity - the acknowledgement that we are all flawed and that despite all that and all our evil God is loving and merciful enough to redeem us and allow us into heaven.
Myself, my problem with Christianity is the converse of this issue - that no matter how good you are, if you don't have that basic faith or belief in God and Jesus, you don't make it up there. I can understand that God's love is bountiful enough to forgive and redeem all sinners - but I can't understand how despite all this love he has he can bear to condemn ordinary people to eternal suffering. If God can do that, in my mind God can't be good. If God can't be good, why am I following him at all?
Also please do not react hostile-ly to this comment. I know you know how I feel about religion right now, so there's no need to, you know, call me out for blindly defending faith or anything.
Reply
I think what Wan Hui meant about the whole, Christianity annoys me because unlike other religions, it doesn't let you into heaven merely based on your good deeds, is really what you're saying about how your problem with Christianity is the fact that it doesn't matter how good you are, in the end you can only enter heaven through faith. I think both of you are referring to the same thing - that good deeds, being a good person doesn't matter, only your faith does.
I think that's the sticking point for a lot of Christians I know; Flo once told me that she wanted me to be a Christian, because if not I'll go to hell, and she really didn't want me to - and I didn't really know how to respond, because the sentiments are genuine, just misguided (to me, because I don't believe that.) However, two responses?
Gabriel told me that there is the point of Christianity. You can't just be good because the point isn't your sins; you can't atone for them, no ( ... )
Reply
Why are you so cheem. It's so cool that you can do that (like, write so much :O), cause I definitely can't. (:
When you say Christianity cripples it's clientèle with the doctrine of original sin, you mean?
Reply
For me, Christianity isn't really about religion, in fact, that's the worst thing, cause it brings about stereotype to everyone else. Personally, I feel it's about relationship with God, and that's really precious, cause it's intimate and God's way of showing me he loves me, above everything I've done.
The best part for me, is that no matter what I do, He's still there to love me. And I can talk to him, you know. I don't have to work for it. Nobody has to work for it.
Right now, I'm trusting Him for making true His purpose in my life, even through having doubts, because at the end of the day I have faith that He'll make everything work in the end.
Also, about having faith, it's not something you are immediately forced into when you become a Christian. I choose to have faith because after learning about God and everything, I just believe that He IS someone I can rely on, through everything ( ... )
Reply
Reply
There are definitely parts of religion that are too restricting. Hmm. I guess it's a personal decision what to regard as correct/important and what's not.
Christianity CAN bring out the worst in some people, I agree! Phoo. ):
It's cool how Christianity can bring out the best in people, like haha it's inspiring. I try to be good. Hahaha. Oh my. :D
Well, about God existing, I guess it's something you've got to think about yourself? Idk haha. Woah.
I will visit you guys in Jblk one day! It's so lovely and windy! :D
Reply
:O you're applying to hwach?
Reply
I DON'T KNOW OMG. HOW. DO YOU STILL WANT TO? I think I'm just going to go down for the interview, see what happens. Doesn't hurt to keep my options open, yes?
Reply
and it's uh, kinda ironic my dear. cause going to hwach means entering the humanities programme, which ultimately CUTS OFF your options, cause yknow, arts closes off more doors in terms of uni courses than science does.
i personally think that you should either go into science or go do sthg like ib/uwc where it's this general thing and you study everything - both humanities and sciences. doing arts in jc is basically for 2 kinds of people - those who know for sure they want to do arts, and those that fail at science so badly they have no choice but to do arts. hahah.
Reply
- True. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to take Sciences in JC, though. Quite. Unless like, I suddenly score full marks for Chem/Bio during EYAs, which is so possible, right. Pretty set on Humanities, I think. Plus, in Hwach a lot of people drop math. RJ will probably flail around in horror if you tried, idk.
WHAT IF I WANT TO STUDY PHILOSOPHY/ECONOMICS. I don't know - still aiming for UWC/IB, but Sciences in RJC is pretty much definitely out, so. Really will see how. I think BOTH OPTIONS (a)know for sure want to do arts, and b)) FAIL AT SCIENCE BADLY) apply to me xD
So you're going to Sciences?
Reply
Your view of Christianity seems highly cynical. This may just be byproduct of all the beliefs I've been fed since young, but despite everything I still really, really believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven. It's a conviction I cannot let go of. I believe that humanity is fundamentally flawed; that I am fundamentally flawed. "Christianity sells salvation"? I understand but disagree with the perspective that it's like an economic competition to get the most believers. Ideally, people evangelise not because they want to - win the race, or something, but because they genuinely ( ... )
Reply
Totally random, but I miss talking to you about stuff like we did in Sec 2. Haha, everyone changes I guess. ):
<3
Omg who is the pastor who said philosophy is evil? That is just- omg I don't know what to say! THAT IS GROSS WHY DID HE SAY THAT. DD: Totaly disagree, my mind is screaming out. QUESTIONING IS GOOD! /exasperated sigh.
Actually some of these sins, they have pretty convincing reasons behind why they're considered sins. Oh, btw, you know the bible does NOT mention anything about masturbation at all? One opinion (BUT THERE ISN'T A right OPINION, it's how you interpret it) by a pastor called Kris Vallotton (who wrote a book called Purity. I like it.) is that the no-mention is cause it's open to negotiation with God. There's a paragraph in his Purity book addressing that. Haha. Had to say that.
I can't see the scans. ):
Reply
But we CAN'T imagine! Cause we're not God! :OOOO
Hahahahaha. MINDBOGGLE.
Reply
I know the Bible says nothing about masturbation but after doing research and thinking about it I concluded that: since God made sex and sexual pleasure to be enjoyed strictly between marriage, as a form of procreation and blessed union between man and wife alone, masturbation would count as outside of His intended purposes for sex and thus, if not explicitly wrong, still a form of "second-rate" sex. Imperfect. Unclean.
Convincing reasons for these sins to be considered sins? I'd really like to know. I am leaning towards viewing them as "victimless crimes" - by which I mean that they don't actually hurt anybody. Not like murder, stealing, adultery, abuse etc would. (But I guess they hurt God, huh? Heh.)
And yes - we can't imagine, because we're not God. This is why it is so hard to resolve debates about Christianity. Because in the end, it just boils down to faith.
Reply
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