Oh, I like that. I have a big thing for How The West Was Won type Westerns, the change from wilderness to order and how individuals fit in, (which is also what the Icelandic sagas are mostly about). And Harry Potter has that- this shift from the old order and the old hatreds to this new attempt at a wizarding world, Plus of course, Harry has taken the hype for somebody else's victory before- when Lily's sacrifice destroyed Voldemort for the first time.
Although, the film is never entirely clear who shot Liberty Valance. The two bullets are never seen, so it's possible- faintly, miraculously possible that Ransom was the man, and Tom lied because it was the only thing that would get Ransom back in to the fight for statehood. I prefer your ideas, though.
Ironically, for some reason I looked away from the screen just as the first shooting happened. Then I was all, "What happened? Did he shoot him?" Because it seemed so unlikely that he'd have managed it--so I was kind of suspicious of the whole thing to begin with and almost waiting to hear that John Wayne somehow did it. That probably effected the way I interpreted it. Though either way, Tom is taking the sin upon himself, and it fascinates me that he'd have to do that for any reason, given the way it's set up.
And Harry Potter has that- this shift from the old order and the old hatreds to this new attempt at a wizarding world, Plus of course, Harry has taken the hype for somebody else's victory before- when Lily's sacrifice destroyed Voldemort for the first time.
Definitely--I think that first part especially is part of what makes the story so compelling for me. I love that there are all these people hanging around representing the incomplete victory--including Harry himself as TBWL who later has to really do it himself.
*applauds* A beautiful and ingenious parallel! I find the parallel so perfect that I'm not convinced that obviously Snape’s not going to be the one to do it!
I love the parallel you’ve drawn here (although I don’t love the fact I’ll be humming ‘The Man Who Shot Liberty DD, he shot Liberty DD, he was the greatest of them a-a-a-a-a-a-l-l’, all day long. Gee, thanks!)
It occurs to me that Harry already is carrying a little bit of Snape - his memories from the Pensieve. Knowing someone at their worst moment would create that kind of bond even when you don’t want it, I would think.
Heh--there's nothing like a Western Ballad to get into the head.
That's true, Harry totally does carry a bit of Snape. In a way HBP drew that out even more having Harry learn from Snape. Actually, I think Harry and Snape are probably more alike than Tom and Ransom are, so Harry can't get away from it.
I really loved your post, specially the movie analysis -"He can't really change or become this new man--he may be "good" while Liberty is "bad" but they are two of a kind where Ransom is not." It even made me want to watch the movie even though I dislike thrillers and don't remember ever watching a Western. Wish you would write more such analyses about movies and books [without or with connection to HP]. :-)
Ransom can't ever be completely dismissive of the type of man Tom was given what he owes him. As I said, he has to carry part of Tom with him into the new world because of that, and that's the way Tom really doesn't just die forgotten. That's one of the reasons why I have never liked fandom theories that Peter will kill Voldemort, thus making D's prediction "one day you will be glad you saved his life" come true. I feel that such sacrifice should bring redemption and forgiveness,and I can't grant Peter that. He killed Harry's parents, betrayed his own friends [while loyalty and bravery are the 2 central values in the series] and
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Recently I've seen more Westerns than I've ever seen in my life, strangely enough. (I have written about some movies at different times--if you look under the tag for movies, though I can't remember what all is there. I never know what's going to set me off.:-)
That's one of the reasons why I have never liked fandom theories that Peter will kill Voldemort, thus making D's prediction "one day you will be glad you saved his life" come true. I feel that such sacrifice should bring redemption and forgiveness,and I can't grant Peter that.I agree-and also when Peter is recommended for the person who'll be "redeemed." I just don't see how he can be, even in death. Even the thing with Harry saving his life seems to undercut that for me, because it makes anything Peter would do for Harry again in his best interests, somehow, or not something he's necessarily doing out of a sense of right and wrong
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Ironically with Snape it seems like his feeling indebted to James comes out of his own personal feelings, and the way he protects Harry so grudgingly in PS somehow makes it better. Maybe because he's not lying about it or something. I have started thinking what is the basic difference between Snape & Peter in my head and why,while both committed horrible crimes, I can forgive one, but not another. The result was this post: http://elanor-x.livejournal.com/25141.html#cutid1 :-) I am unsure about it, since the conclusion seems self-evident. :-( Hope you don't care I put your quotes.
Snape seems to be the one saying, "Cold-blooded murder. I can live with that."This is really interesting; it makes me think about the role Snape has in the Order and the amount of respect he gets from the other members and DD. Possibly I should re-read OotP and HBP, because my memory is really hazy on this point, but do we ever get any indication that Snape is respected by the Order? Or that he isn't respected
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This is really interesting; it makes me think about the role Snape has in the Order and the amount of respect he gets from the other members and DD. Possibly I should re-read OotP and HBP, because my memory is really hazy on this point, but do we ever get any indication that Snape is respected by the Order? Or that he isn't respected?I get that feeling too. And also I think that often goes along with his role of the spy. A lot of the characters in canon--Gryffindors, certainly--seem to prefer open fighting and look down on spying. That's sometimes reflected in fandom. Just recently I was talking to someone who always insists that Snape's never risked his life, because spying on LV just isn't a risk (especially since LV would kill him if he deserted him). Anything Snape does to preserve cover is sort of held against him
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Again there's the whole shadow thing where the one aspect of the school is repressed and cut off from the rest, and gets worse because of it.
And that opens up the question of Hufflepuff's and Ravanclaw's roles, because, IMO, Slytherin is clearly set up as Gryffindor's shadow. There's some indication of their loyalties, what with the mention of three quarters of the school supporting Gryffindor in the Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match in PS/SS and so on, but there doesn't seem to be the same kind of vitriol there as there is in the Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry. Are Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws the kind of people who mostly stay out of it, but who, if pressed, support Gryffindor because even they don't trust Slytherin
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First, regarding the Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff alliances. I've always felt that Gryffindor and Slytherin are the big split and that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are fairly neutral with Ravenclaw tending to skew more Slytherin and Hufflepuff more Gryffindor. But I'm hard put to back that up, as more individual Hufflepuffs seem be anti-Harry than Ravenclaws. (We have Justin, and Ernie as anti-Harry in CoS, while Zacharias Smith is firmly anti-Harry by OotP
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Although, the film is never entirely clear who shot Liberty Valance. The two bullets are never seen, so it's possible- faintly, miraculously possible that Ransom was the man, and Tom lied because it was the only thing that would get Ransom back in to the fight for statehood. I prefer your ideas, though.
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And Harry Potter has that- this shift from the old order and the old hatreds to this new attempt at a wizarding world, Plus of course, Harry has taken the hype for somebody else's victory before- when Lily's sacrifice destroyed Voldemort for the first time.
Definitely--I think that first part especially is part of what makes the story so compelling for me. I love that there are all these people hanging around representing the incomplete victory--including Harry himself as TBWL who later has to really do it himself.
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It occurs to me that Harry already is carrying a little bit of Snape - his memories from the Pensieve. Knowing someone at their worst moment would create that kind of bond even when you don’t want it, I would think.
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That's true, Harry totally does carry a bit of Snape. In a way HBP drew that out even more having Harry learn from Snape. Actually, I think Harry and Snape are probably more alike than Tom and Ransom are, so Harry can't get away from it.
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Ransom can't ever be completely dismissive of the type of man Tom was given what he owes him. As I said, he has to carry part of Tom with him into the new world because of that, and that's the way Tom really doesn't just die forgotten. That's one of the reasons why I have never liked fandom theories that Peter will kill Voldemort, thus making D's prediction "one day you will be glad you saved his life" come true. I feel that such sacrifice should bring redemption and forgiveness,and I can't grant Peter that. He killed Harry's parents, betrayed his own friends [while loyalty and bravery are the 2 central values in the series] and ( ... )
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That's one of the reasons why I have never liked fandom theories that Peter will kill Voldemort, thus making D's prediction "one day you will be glad you saved his life" come true. I feel that such sacrifice should bring redemption and forgiveness,and I can't grant Peter that.I agree-and also when Peter is recommended for the person who'll be "redeemed." I just don't see how he can be, even in death. Even the thing with Harry saving his life seems to undercut that for me, because it makes anything Peter would do for Harry again in his best interests, somehow, or not something he's necessarily doing out of a sense of right and wrong ( ... )
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I have started thinking what is the basic difference between Snape & Peter in my head and why,while both committed horrible crimes, I can forgive one, but not another. The result was this post: http://elanor-x.livejournal.com/25141.html#cutid1 :-) I am unsure about it, since the conclusion seems self-evident. :-( Hope you don't care I put your quotes.
Reply
Snape seems to be the one saying, "Cold-blooded murder. I can live with that."This is really interesting; it makes me think about the role Snape has in the Order and the amount of respect he gets from the other members and DD. Possibly I should re-read OotP and HBP, because my memory is really hazy on this point, but do we ever get any indication that Snape is respected by the Order? Or that he isn't respected ( ... )
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And that opens up the question of Hufflepuff's and Ravanclaw's roles, because, IMO, Slytherin is clearly set up as Gryffindor's shadow. There's some indication of their loyalties, what with the mention of three quarters of the school supporting Gryffindor in the Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match in PS/SS and so on, but there doesn't seem to be the same kind of vitriol there as there is in the Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry. Are Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws the kind of people who mostly stay out of it, but who, if pressed, support Gryffindor because even they don't trust Slytherin ( ... )
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