Snape seems to be the one saying, "Cold-blooded murder. I can live with that."
This is really interesting; it makes me think about the role Snape has in the Order and the amount of respect he gets from the other members and DD. Possibly I should re-read OotP and HBP, because my memory is really hazy on this point, but do we ever get any indication that Snape is respected by the Order? Or that he isn't respected?
The most noticable thing about Snape is, IMO, his extreme bitterness, and I wonder whether it might not be exacerbated by his not receiving the respect for his job as a spy that he thinks he deserves?
Several fanfics I've read have described Snape as a person who does what have to be done ("cold-blooded murder") and receives no thanks. Rather, he's mistrusted and reviled as a Death Eater by several of his fellow Order members. Often even DD cheerfully takes the fruits of Snape's spying work, but offers no real respect for that. I've got to admit that I like that kind of fics, partly because my opinion of DD isn't very high, but also because they explore that tension between "keeping your soul pure" and "doing what has to be done", and how the focus on purity may become selfish, like you said, and lead to reviling the people who must do the dirty work because no one else will do it.
I kind of like the theory that Snape is so bitter because he is doing the dirty work and no one, not even DD, respects that.
This is really interesting; it makes me think about the role Snape has in the Order and the amount of respect he gets from the other members and DD. Possibly I should re-read OotP and HBP, because my memory is really hazy on this point, but do we ever get any indication that Snape is respected by the Order? Or that he isn't respected?
I get that feeling too. And also I think that often goes along with his role of the spy. A lot of the characters in canon--Gryffindors, certainly--seem to prefer open fighting and look down on spying. That's sometimes reflected in fandom. Just recently I was talking to someone who always insists that Snape's never risked his life, because spying on LV just isn't a risk (especially since LV would kill him if he deserted him). Anything Snape does to preserve cover is sort of held against him.
I think that's a common feeling people have against spies because by definition they aren't trustworty. It's the same kind of splitting, in a way, where the good side needs somebody like Snape, but they still revile him for being that thing that they need. In HP it's even more split because Gryffindors are so totally associated with open fighting and reckless heroism while Slytherin is associated with being slippery and spying. Again there's the whole shadow thing where the one aspect of the school is repressed and cut off from the rest, and gets worse because of it.
Again there's the whole shadow thing where the one aspect of the school is repressed and cut off from the rest, and gets worse because of it.
And that opens up the question of Hufflepuff's and Ravanclaw's roles, because, IMO, Slytherin is clearly set up as Gryffindor's shadow. There's some indication of their loyalties, what with the mention of three quarters of the school supporting Gryffindor in the Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match in PS/SS and so on, but there doesn't seem to be the same kind of vitriol there as there is in the Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry. Are Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws the kind of people who mostly stay out of it, but who, if pressed, support Gryffindor because even they don't trust Slytherin?
To continue the Snape parallel, it'd be very interesting to see an Order meeting and get a sense of Snape's position in the Order. Are there openly hostile member there, e.g. Moody (the Gryffindors of the Order), and members who mostly accept Snape but don't really trust and respect him either (the Ravenclaws and the Hufflepuffs of the Order)?
To get back to the repression and cutting off of one aspect of the school, I get the feeling that there is quite a lot of after-the-fact justification going on. "They are all Dark Wizards and Death Eaters-in-training, so they deserve all the hatred" kind of thing. According to the Sorting Hat, though, the rift has existed since the Founders' days, which makes it seem like there's this vicious circle going on, where the three other houses hate Slytherins, which makes Slytherins rebel against it, which makes the other houses hate Slytherins more, et cetera ad nauseam.
Off topic: I wonder whether some of the hatred of the Dark Arts is not really hatred of Slytherin. If the Dark Arts have been seen as Slytherins' area of interest, and Slytherins aren't trusted, then wouldn't it lead to a mistrust of the Dark Arts? Durmstrang, after all, teaches the Dark Arts, so the attitudes in continental Europe seem to be a bit different. What are the Dark Arts, anyway?
(Eh, I seem to be totally incapable of keeping my thoughts on topic today. Don't mind me.)
First, regarding the Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff alliances. I've always felt that Gryffindor and Slytherin are the big split and that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are fairly neutral with Ravenclaw tending to skew more Slytherin and Hufflepuff more Gryffindor. But I'm hard put to back that up, as more individual Hufflepuffs seem be anti-Harry than Ravenclaws. (We have Justin, and Ernie as anti-Harry in CoS, while Zacharias Smith is firmly anti-Harry by OotP.)
Of course, that's all through the Harry filter. If you look at GoF, you notice that Ravenclaws welcomed the Beauxbatons to their table (or perhaps the Beauxbatons students chose their table), while the Durmstrang students sat with the Slytherins. Does mean that Ravenclaw and Slytherin are more welcoming than Hufflepuff and Gryffindor? More continental and less "English"? Or Snobbier (Ravenclaw) and more Slavic (Slytherin)? Or just more attractive in general?
It all gets even odder when you look at the Quidditch rivalries, because Gryffindor (since Harry's second year) invariably trounces Slytherin, gets beaten by Hufflepuff (for whatever unfair reason), and manages to beat Ravenclaw by just enough to snatch the Cup from them (not Slytherin).
So, you'd expect the real rivalry to come between Gryffindor and Hufflepuff (who keeps beating the Gryffindors), or between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw (because they are always playing the last game). That it's Slytherin is very strange.
Now the competition between Slytherin and Gryffindor for the House cup is understandable. But you'd think that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff would be sick of them both, especially since neither Brains (Ravenclaw) nor Hard Work (Hufflepuff) counts for points nearly as much as Cunning (Slytherin) or Showiness--er--Bravery (Gryffindor).
As for Snape's position in the Order (pre-pissing them all off by killing their leader), he wasn't known at all during the First War. During OotP, we catch a glimpse of Snape at a meeting--a meeting that people are excited about because *he* is coming. He's at the center of the group as they leave, so he isn't being shunned.
The "questions" about him are mentioned by McGonagall. She might be talking more about the teachers at Hogwarts, maybe some parents--Snape as a teacher more than Snape as a spy.
Snape seems to be the one saying, "Cold-blooded murder. I can live with that."
This is really interesting; it makes me think about the role Snape has in the Order and the amount of respect he gets from the other members and DD. Possibly I should re-read OotP and HBP, because my memory is really hazy on this point, but do we ever get any indication that Snape is respected by the Order? Or that he isn't respected?
The most noticable thing about Snape is, IMO, his extreme bitterness, and I wonder whether it might not be exacerbated by his not receiving the respect for his job as a spy that he thinks he deserves?
Several fanfics I've read have described Snape as a person who does what have to be done ("cold-blooded murder") and receives no thanks. Rather, he's mistrusted and reviled as a Death Eater by several of his fellow Order members. Often even DD cheerfully takes the fruits of Snape's spying work, but offers no real respect for that. I've got to admit that I like that kind of fics, partly because my opinion of DD isn't very high, but also because they explore that tension between "keeping your soul pure" and "doing what has to be done", and how the focus on purity may become selfish, like you said, and lead to reviling the people who must do the dirty work because no one else will do it.
I kind of like the theory that Snape is so bitter because he is doing the dirty work and no one, not even DD, respects that.
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I get that feeling too. And also I think that often goes along with his role of the spy. A lot of the characters in canon--Gryffindors, certainly--seem to prefer open fighting and look down on spying. That's sometimes reflected in fandom. Just recently I was talking to someone who always insists that Snape's never risked his life, because spying on LV just isn't a risk (especially since LV would kill him if he deserted him). Anything Snape does to preserve cover is sort of held against him.
I think that's a common feeling people have against spies because by definition they aren't trustworty. It's the same kind of splitting, in a way, where the good side needs somebody like Snape, but they still revile him for being that thing that they need. In HP it's even more split because Gryffindors are so totally associated with open fighting and reckless heroism while Slytherin is associated with being slippery and spying. Again there's the whole shadow thing where the one aspect of the school is repressed and cut off from the rest, and gets worse because of it.
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And that opens up the question of Hufflepuff's and Ravanclaw's roles, because, IMO, Slytherin is clearly set up as Gryffindor's shadow. There's some indication of their loyalties, what with the mention of three quarters of the school supporting Gryffindor in the Gryffindor-Slytherin Quidditch match in PS/SS and so on, but there doesn't seem to be the same kind of vitriol there as there is in the Gryffindor-Slytherin rivalry. Are Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws the kind of people who mostly stay out of it, but who, if pressed, support Gryffindor because even they don't trust Slytherin?
To continue the Snape parallel, it'd be very interesting to see an Order meeting and get a sense of Snape's position in the Order. Are there openly hostile member there, e.g. Moody (the Gryffindors of the Order), and members who mostly accept Snape but don't really trust and respect him either (the Ravenclaws and the Hufflepuffs of the Order)?
To get back to the repression and cutting off of one aspect of the school, I get the feeling that there is quite a lot of after-the-fact justification going on. "They are all Dark Wizards and Death Eaters-in-training, so they deserve all the hatred" kind of thing. According to the Sorting Hat, though, the rift has existed since the Founders' days, which makes it seem like there's this vicious circle going on, where the three other houses hate Slytherins, which makes Slytherins rebel against it, which makes the other houses hate Slytherins more, et cetera ad nauseam.
Off topic: I wonder whether some of the hatred of the Dark Arts is not really hatred of Slytherin. If the Dark Arts have been seen as Slytherins' area of interest, and Slytherins aren't trusted, then wouldn't it lead to a mistrust of the Dark Arts? Durmstrang, after all, teaches the Dark Arts, so the attitudes in continental Europe seem to be a bit different. What are the Dark Arts, anyway?
(Eh, I seem to be totally incapable of keeping my thoughts on topic today. Don't mind me.)
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Of course, that's all through the Harry filter. If you look at GoF, you notice that Ravenclaws welcomed the Beauxbatons to their table (or perhaps the Beauxbatons students chose their table), while the Durmstrang students sat with the Slytherins. Does mean that Ravenclaw and Slytherin are more welcoming than Hufflepuff and Gryffindor? More continental and less "English"? Or Snobbier (Ravenclaw) and more Slavic (Slytherin)? Or just more attractive in general?
It all gets even odder when you look at the Quidditch rivalries, because Gryffindor (since Harry's second year) invariably trounces Slytherin, gets beaten by Hufflepuff (for whatever unfair reason), and manages to beat Ravenclaw by just enough to snatch the Cup from them (not Slytherin).
So, you'd expect the real rivalry to come between Gryffindor and Hufflepuff (who keeps beating the Gryffindors), or between Gryffindor and Ravenclaw (because they are always playing the last game). That it's Slytherin is very strange.
Now the competition between Slytherin and Gryffindor for the House cup is understandable. But you'd think that Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff would be sick of them both, especially since neither Brains (Ravenclaw) nor Hard Work (Hufflepuff) counts for points nearly as much as Cunning (Slytherin) or Showiness--er--Bravery (Gryffindor).
As for Snape's position in the Order (pre-pissing them all off by killing their leader), he wasn't known at all during the First War. During OotP, we catch a glimpse of Snape at a meeting--a meeting that people are excited about because *he* is coming. He's at the center of the group as they leave, so he isn't being shunned.
The "questions" about him are mentioned by McGonagall. She might be talking more about the teachers at Hogwarts, maybe some parents--Snape as a teacher more than Snape as a spy.
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