SWG Re-Read - "Of Túrin Turambar" Discussion Post

[oloriel]

Of Túrin Turambar

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Welcome this fortnight's chapter discussion!

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Comments

[hhimring]

I think Morgoth's curse is real. But it is more than the uttering of a single curse that then takes effect. Morgoth's malice is an active force that pursues Turin, especially after he leaves the protection Doriath affords him. Things do not go well for others in post-Nirnaeth Beleriand either and that is by no means entirely Turin's fault--barriers to Morgoth's influence have broken down.
That said, Turin's own flaws lay him wide open to Morgoth's curse--and his strengths, also...

[indy1776]

I think it's real, too. But I also think Túrin's stubbornness made things worse for him. (Some things he had absolutely no control over. But I cannot understand why he didn't return to Doriath when he learned he'd been pardoned.)

[oloriel]

I can only assume that it was a combination of pride and of his belief that he could somehow outrun his fate (judging by his name-changing, he already seems to have realised that something was going on). Maybe he thought that his doom was clearly looking for him in Doriath, so it was safer to be somewhere else? [You know the old story about the dude in Athens who is visited by Death, who frowns and tells him he'll come for him tomorrow? Dude is terrified, decides to outrun death, rides and rides and rides until he reaches Damascus, where... he dies. Death comes, and the dude asks "OK, you won, but why did you frown like that yesterday?" Says Death: "Because I was supposed to pick you up in Damascus, and there you were in Athens..."]
Anyway, I don't think Túrin fully understood that the curse wasn't upon "Túrin son of Húrin, resident of Doriath", but upon "the seed of Húrin", i.e., going by genetics (which he couldn't well change) rather than a mere name or location!

[indy1776]

That's a good point about Túrin thinking his doom might be tied to Doriath.

Anyway, I don't think Túrin fully understood that the curse wasn't upon "Túrin son of Húrin, resident of Doriath", but upon "the seed of Húrin", i.e., going by genetics (which he couldn't well change) rather than a mere name or location!

Thinking about it, I'm not sure anyone understood that it was on Húrin's family rather than on Túrin himself until all the facts were collected and Túrin and Nienor were dead. Morgoth targeting one person clearly isn't out of the realm of possibilty, which makes me wonder if it happened to anyone else.

[anna_wing]

Thoughts

[oloriel]

2 So true.

4 Excellent point about the Beren thing. Gwindor actually says as much when talking to Finduilas. And in Doriath, too, Thingol's guilt over how he treated Beren made Thingol accept Túrin into his house... so it makes sense that would work in Nargothrond, too. (Not to mention Húrin's heroic stand in the Nirnaeth, of course!)

5 Not sure Glaurung would have that freedom, though, being so firmly tied to Morgoth! Normal Men might not know too much about Mandos, but Túrin is almost a Sinda by education, so he'd probably know as much (or little?) as Melian lets her people know...

6 The Silmarils seem to make anyone act silly, so Thingol probably didn't need the help of Eöl's spirit. Besides, was Aranrúth made by Eöl at all? I remember Anglachel and Anguirel, but I cannot honestly remember who (and when) made Aranrúth!

[anna_wing]

I cannot honestly remember who (and when) made Aranrúth!

You are right, I was thinking of Anguirel and got the names mixed up. But I do wonder how many of Turin's bad decisions were enabled by Anglachel's personality (it clearly had one, and not a very nice one either). One thinks of Elric and Stormbringer.

[oloriel]

Hm. Túrin's proved that he's perfectly capable of bad decisions even before getting his hands on Anglachel (such as following the outlaw's custom of indiscriminately attacking and robbing anyone before Beleg came along, or as staying with the outlaws instead of returning to Doriath, or as - apparently randomly! - attacking the three Dwarves that ran from him and his band (i.e., were no threat)), so I'm not sure he needed any help from Eöl, though. His own character flaws, and the curse of Morgoth, might have been quite enough...

[hhimring]

Turin's decision not to return to Doriath makes slightly more sense in the longer versions, if I remember correctly. He's developed emotional ties and feelings of responsibility for the outlaws, who he can't bring along, if he goes to Doriath. They have become a sort of substitute for the Hadorians of Dor-lomin to him. Turin is successful among Elves, but perhaps not all that comfortable among them, except with those he regards as real friends like Beleg

[oloriel]

I have to admit that I liked Túrin, too. At the moment, though, I feel extremely annoyed - comes from reading too many versions of the angst-fest he gets himself into (or is cursed into, or both), I suppose. I really sympathise with Túrin normally, but at the moment, all I can think is "Oh why don't you just stab yourself and spare us further drama?" Unfair, I know!

Excellent point about the Nirnaeth, and that Orodreth may have felt guilty about not taking part, thus making him open to Túrin's "heroics"!

[hhimring]

Well, I can understand that!
I haven't even managed to read Children of Hurin all in one go--since it is essentially all material that I had read at some point or other in HoME already, just all packed together. I've erratically skipped back and forth in it instead.
Which is why I missed that bit about Gwindor's lost hand suddenly having become canonical, until I saw a discussion of it.
I thought it was one of Tolkien's less good ideas myself--I have difficulty believing he would manage to survive in that state until he met Beleg and afterwards he has to take care of Turin as well--but other people seem to think it is an acknowledgement of Gwindor's heroic status, because it puts him on a par with Maedhros and Beren.

[oloriel]

Hey, there's 25% previously unpublished material in Children of Húrin!
I actually enjoy CoH more than the corresponding Silm chapter. I think because it's taking more time to tell the story, you also have more time to understand the characters, while the Silm chapter basically reads like a list of Stupid Guy Doing Stupid Things. ;)

I have to admit that I'm not a fan of Gwindor's lost hand either, not even because of any reality concerns, but because seriously, he's the third guy with exactly that happening? Sort of reads like a hand is the standard price for a ticket outta Angband. Well, at least they're not charging a hand and a foot... If he'd lost an eye, or a couple of toes to frostbite, or had a limp because of a badly healed broken leg... fine. But yet another hand? :P
OK, so how about this one: Maedhros, Beren and Gwindor walk into a Second Hand-Shop...