because after reading lj I feel the need to make this perfectly clear

[silveraspen]

I am a woman.

I am a feminist.

I love Supernatural.

Maybe I'll get around to making a longer post as to all the reasons why that's still as true at this point in the series as it was for me back at the end of Season 2. The more I read of reactions these days, the more I feel as though I need to defend my show, and that although that makes me

Comments

[spicedrum]

The first half of the episode was very much crap - hell hounds and meg, out of complete nowhere? They had all of those reapers and couldn't bother to do anything with them? wtf? I very much agree with your exploding popcorn analogy.

I did enjoy (a lot) the moment when Castiel walked across Meg to get out of the circle of flaming oil. heh

heh heh heh

That was really cool.

[silveraspen]

There was a lot of WTF there. And just all kinds of little details that were either missing or stupid. E.g. hellhounds and no goofer dust after all the time was spent setting that up, really? the entire drive into town scene with holding cell phones out the window, really? and as you said, Meg out of nowhere -- although I am hoping that is to set up/showcase that she's going to be a major player as things go forward, but who knows.

Possibly a scarred and very pissed-off major player now, but still.

Anyway. Here's hoping that Edlund gets kept away from future mytharc episodes, or that the reason this one was so messy was that people are busy trying to write the upcoming ones into pure awesome.

[spicedrum]

I'm thinking it was more of "this is where we're going to end up, let's go one episode back and write this and this and oh crap, the season's started and we have to have the harvelles die and establish that the colt can't kill lucifer and and and... all of the other episodes are filled with shit. Crap! Edlund! Throw it all in episode ten!"

Or something.

[spicedrum]

And by "shit" I mean "stuff", not shit as in low-quality stuff.

You know what I mean.

[weaverandom]

*stands next to you quietly*

I'm heartbroken, but ... oh, SHOW. Oh SHOW. ♥

[silveraspen]

Yes. UTTER HEARTBREAK, because I love and adore both Jo and Ellen, and DAMN but their deaths SHOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER TOLD in terms of story quality, but ... yeah.

Tea?

*offers entire kettle full*

[sdelmonte]

I haven't really loved the show in a while. For many reasons. How women and minorities are treated is just part of the picture. But it's a part that this week's episode brought into focus, even as I was not happy that the Harvelles died to support a really bad plan, and that all the dark crap that I was dreaded and relieved not to be getting in big doses was coming to us in a huge dose.

Never mind that, unlike almost everyone I know who watches SPN, I am sick and tired of shock deaths. I hate them here, I hate them on Lost, I hate them from Joss, I abhor them in the comics.

All that said, I am not leaving SPN. I still love the acting, and like most of what they do. But I always go into it with eyes wide open, knowing that they could write something really dumb at a moment's notice.

[silveraspen]

I was not happy that the Harvelles died to support a really bad plan

That is precisely it, for me -- their lives, characters, and stories were valued and valuable and worth a better exit. It's not the fact of their deaths that was the problem for me (other than that it was HEARTBREAKING, because I love them); it's that it was badly, badly done, and it didn't HAVE to be.

shock deaths
I, um, don't watch Lost. Nor have I been following much if anything from Joss since... possibly since Serenity; I tried the Buffy Season 8 comic and the Angel comic, and gave up on both.

I haven't really loved the show in a while. For many reasons.

Which is eminently and utterly fair and understandable, of course.

The reason I made this post is that I'm feeling the need to defend the fact that I still do. Which makes me sad.

[impactbomb]

I can understand your reasoning. At least, I think I can.

I just can't do the same - as a feminist, for my own reasons. I do think it's wrong to label SPN "feminist", I do think it's wrong to read empowerment into the narrative it's presented to the audience, but I also think there's nothing wrong with being a feminist and still liking SPN because of what you get out of its characters and plot; and there is something desirable about it. So many reactions, including my own, were visceral and emotional because it is a show that inspires visceral connection from the audience - and while that isn't necessarily a measure of quality, it is a measure of enough emotional accuracy/honesty in a show to make it compelling and interesting television. "Women's Work" was not made to protest a show the fans who made it hated; it was made out of honest love that the show had earned and had justified. I think people forget that love does not erase flaws or erase objections to a work's problems; it just means they're under the skin, living with

[silveraspen]

It's wrong to dismiss the complaints people are making

Whoops -- I am glad you noted this, because I did not intend to come across as dismissive, nor as denying anyone's complaints validity. ETA for even more clarity: There are issues and there are reasons to complain, and even if there weren't things I myself could see, that doesn't for a second mean that I should deny anyone their reaction and interpretation. I don't get to speak for anyone else that way.

My intent is to stand against the strong impression that I am receiving that "if you still like this show you are not supporting women," which is something I do not agree with. At all.

Taking from your other examples -- I don't like Dollhouse, for reasons of female agency and the lack thereof. I may not understand why people do. But I will never, never say that a person is wrong for finding things in the show to enjoy and in doing just that -- and if I did, I would hope that someone would call me on it.

Women's WorkYes. It is possible to love something deeply and still

[bansidhe]

And in this case, part of what exploded messily was Ellen and Jo's lives. And it wasn't right that their ending should have been so shabbily told. That's what upsets me most about this episode; they were worth more than that.

Sing it, Aspen.

Honestly, that episode left me just... Unbearably angry. (I love Jo, and that was... It wasn't right.) I'm not saying anything new here, but I agree: It wasn't well-handled, the sequence of events was really very 'Wait, what?' and had MASSIVE holes-- About the only aspect I'm pleased with was Lucifer showing Sam his true colors¹, but the whole 'You Can Do Nothing To Stop This' aspect was...

I don't know that I can say it coherently. :( And after watching that ep, I just... There was nothing gained, nothing at all, was there?

¹ "They're only demons." -- Riight, because that's going to work in convincing Sam you're trustworthy, sacrificing your followers! (And I really, really hope it's not going to get spun that Sam's in agreement just because he kills demons.) If that detail gets dropped

[silveraspen]

And after watching that ep, I just... There was nothing gained, nothing at all, was there?

There were elements, factual bits and pieces, that I think may end up fitting into things in a useful fashion.

But it could have been done so much better.