There's a sect of Vulcans called the Kolinahr - basically a monastic order - who purge themsevles of emotions (from The Motion Picture, and Spock mentions in XI that he's considering joining them). Other Vulcans definitely have emotions but they've learned to control them; when this became the norm in their society the group who rejected the idea of suppressing their emotions left the planet and formed the Romulan Empire. Annnnd I know far too much about Star Trek...
but can't the bullying be interpreted as an emotional act?Imo, there's nothing emotional about bullying. It's a pack-mentality act to focus on another's perceived weakness and exploit it until they're driven out of the pack. If anything bullying is logical. I tend to think of it as a remnant from the days when kids weren't pushed into artificial social situations and hierarchies - schools & clubs - and stayed with their parents until they were old enough to fend for themselves. Childhood bullying's an instinct to home in on the runts and pick them off so there's more food and affection for the strongest. It also works in reverse if a group of the weaker ones turn on the biggest/strongest in the group - eliminating a perceived superior means if they have to pick each other off, they're fighting equals
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Hmm, that's a side of bullying that I'd never thought about. I've always assumed that there is some kind of feeling of satisfaction - a high of some kind - for the bully and at the same time there is an emotional damage that needs that high.
But a logical decision about *who* to bully does make a lot of sense as does the idea of the mob mentality being some kind of unconscious logical choice influenced by emotion.
Just my thoughts, but if bullying is primal logic then that would indicate Vulcans are susceptible to other psycho-biology - which'd explain Pon Farr as a biological issue more than a sociological one.A biological issue does make sense in those circumstances, although I do wonder at the reasons why biology would evolve that far. If we assume that all Vulcans do have emotions and use logic as a method of to control and discipline those feelings then I cannot accept the theory (not sure if this is fanon or canon) that Pon Farr allows Vulcans as a species to continue by being the only time they mate. I'm sure that I've seen
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Hmm, that's a side of bullying that I'd never thought about. I've always assumed that there is some kind of feeling of satisfaction - a high of some kind - for the bully and at the same time there is an emotional damage that needs that high.
Bullying is all about having a competitive edge and beating the opposition, but it's really replacing a more directly fatal pass-time, it's like fencing is to duelling. The high a bully gets is pure adrenaline, that's why they do it again and again to the same set of victims. Occasionally there's the emotional satisfaction gained from convincing an adult that the victim is the bully (therefore receiving comfort/love as reward), but during the act itself there's nothing but the chemical rush.
But a logical decision about *who* to bully does make a lot of sense as does the idea of the mob mentality being some kind of unconscious logical choice influenced by emotion.I think it's conscious. But I am one of those people who thinks something that's screaming for food/love at 6hrs old isn't going to
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I totally agree with you about Spocks emotions but I think you are discounting one important thing... Spock Prime (aka WrinklySpock) is older... even at the time of TOS... he has had more time to develop his logic and control his emotions. Just like a person changes a lot from 20-25 or 25-30, I imagine a Vulcan can mature a great amount in the same time I don't see any reason as to why HotSpock should end up much differently than WrinklySpock at any point up until the destruction of Vulcan and the death of his mom. On top of that, WrinklySpock may end up being a mentor to HotSpock, and therefore be a big influence in his life. So he could end up quite the same anyways.
Spock Prime (aka WrinklySpock) is older... even at the time of TOS
That was something I was thinking of, but it got lost in the ramble. This is why I should review and think before I actually post the essay!
So he could end up quite the same anyways. I think that a lot will depend on what happens next for Quinto!Spock. The Jim that Spock Prime was friends with had a different background and a different attitude to life because his father wasn't killed on the USS Kelvin. Kirk had a huge influence on Spock Prime and I've always interpreted that as affecting the way that Spock grew to accept his Vulcan and human heritage. The Spock that we see by Star Trek VI is much more relaxed - knowingly making wry funnies - and I've always attributed that in large part to his friendship with Kirk. I think Spock Prime does allude to that at times
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I'm pretty sure what you said above about Vulcans and logic IS canon. Yes, they have emotions but they've been schooled to ensure they emotions do not control them. Anyone more susceptible to emotions is seen as inferior (hence the prejudice against Spock).
As for his emotions being more obvious in this film; I did see this as a side-effect of him being younger. We've never seen such a young Spock before. There are some episodes of TOS where he shows quite a lot of emotion compared to what he showed later in the films.
Finally... I'm a firm believer in the "butterfly effect", so I see EVERYONE'S timeline as having deviated the moment the Romulan ship came back in time. We don't quite have an obvious point for Spock but something was different!
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Well, not about that, anyway :-)
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But a logical decision about *who* to bully does make a lot of sense as does the idea of the mob mentality being some kind of unconscious logical choice influenced by emotion.
Just my thoughts, but if bullying is primal logic then that would indicate Vulcans are susceptible to other psycho-biology - which'd explain Pon Farr as a biological issue more than a sociological one.A biological issue does make sense in those circumstances, although I do wonder at the reasons why biology would evolve that far. If we assume that all Vulcans do have emotions and use logic as a method of to control and discipline those feelings then I cannot accept the theory (not sure if this is fanon or canon) that Pon Farr allows Vulcans as a species to continue by being the only time they mate. I'm sure that I've seen ( ... )
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Bullying is all about having a competitive edge and beating the opposition, but it's really replacing a more directly fatal pass-time, it's like fencing is to duelling. The high a bully gets is pure adrenaline, that's why they do it again and again to the same set of victims. Occasionally there's the emotional satisfaction gained from convincing an adult that the victim is the bully (therefore receiving comfort/love as reward), but during the act itself there's nothing but the chemical rush.
But a logical decision about *who* to bully does make a lot of sense as does the idea of the mob mentality being some kind of unconscious logical choice influenced by emotion.I think it's conscious. But I am one of those people who thinks something that's screaming for food/love at 6hrs old isn't going to ( ... )
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Anyway.... rambling.
Thanx for the invite!
Leoal
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That was something I was thinking of, but it got lost in the ramble. This is why I should review and think before I actually post the essay!
So he could end up quite the same anyways. I think that a lot will depend on what happens next for Quinto!Spock. The Jim that Spock Prime was friends with had a different background and a different attitude to life because his father wasn't killed on the USS Kelvin. Kirk had a huge influence on Spock Prime and I've always interpreted that as affecting the way that Spock grew to accept his Vulcan and human heritage. The Spock that we see by Star Trek VI is much more relaxed - knowingly making wry funnies - and I've always attributed that in large part to his friendship with Kirk. I think Spock Prime does allude to that at times ( ... )
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As for his emotions being more obvious in this film; I did see this as a side-effect of him being younger. We've never seen such a young Spock before. There are some episodes of TOS where he shows quite a lot of emotion compared to what he showed later in the films.
Finally... I'm a firm believer in the "butterfly effect", so I see EVERYONE'S timeline as having deviated the moment the Romulan ship came back in time. We don't quite have an obvious point for Spock but something was different!
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