Villainy, ah, villainy
As threatened, some ponderings on villains and which ones do and don't make me like or even love them. And, not always related: which kind of redemption stories, both in canon and fanfic, work for me and which one's don't. First, a disclaimer: I know some people declare they prefer the villains on general principle and declare the heroes to be
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I really wanted to discuss this with you because you share some of my frustration with the way fandom tends to react to villains but now I just can't stop thinking about all the wall street criminals, corporate crooks, politicians and the historically long list of bad people that probably fit into that second category you have there and are never going to be punished. *grrr*
I'll try to remember that we are talking about fiction here and participate later.
Oh I did like both stories. I especially liked Discordance since you put human face on the masses that are always being killed and forgotten in these shows as well as the fandoms that enjoy them.
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"Redshirts are real" and putting a face to them is my thing pretty much since writing Five in One, though the feeling was there before.
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Regarding the "redemption" arc, I just found a Loki one that meets every factor. I've been reading it with huge enjoyment, wondering just what movie(s) the author watched that I didn't. Heh. :D
I loved Avengers, and have been reading all kinds of fic for it, mostly from your recs and from there on, but I admit to having the softest spot for Thor and Loki's relationship, with its built-in angst and drama. Of course, neither Chris Hemsworth or Tom Hiddleston are hard on the eyes, which, as you astutely point out, makes it so much easier to enjoy. Hee!
Then again, Scorpius is not what you can call handsome, but he is compelling and magnetic in personality, and frightening at the same time, which gives him great drawing power.
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I have a soft spot for dysfunctional siblings, so of course I loved the Thor and Loki scenes - but unfortunately, as I said, so far every story focusing on the dynamic I've read insists on presenting Aw-he-just-needs-a-hug!Loki, which I really, really disagree with. (So does the film, given that Thor gets stabbed when he tries that approach.)
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I am now amused thinking about Patrick Stewart and Ian MacKellan in the roles of aged Thor and Loki, because that could be fun.
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It's a thoughtful and interesting post, and I really enjoyed reading it. It strikes me, w/r/t I, Claudius, that one of the things that makes the show great is the sheer diversity of the villains. Totally agree with you on Livia and Caligula; among the secondary villains/antagonists you've also got Tiberius as a #4. And then there's Claudius himself, who despite being the protagonist ultimately has sort of the same arc as a #3, with all his family history gradually twisting him out of shape despite all his good intentions. It's fun to think of the series as what happens when you put many ( ... )
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Or if Willow had gone dark and stayed that way, and seasons 4 through 7 had had her as a villain, people...would have been upset.
Butting in to say that actually, that would have made me really happy. I feel that the writers chickened out with Willow, taking her darkside at the end of S6 and then smoothing it all over in S7 because she, you know, felt really bad, without her ever needing to acknowledge or deal with her fundamental inclination to abuse of power.
In fact, while I agree that writers do need to be really careful when they choose to take a character dark, I think the two most important things they need to consider is 1) whether they're willing to commit to following that darkness where it goes and not roll it back by fiat at a later date, and 2) how to do it in a way that is consistent with the character as already written. What I loved about Willow's arc until mid-S6 (and the magic addiction theme, which I felt was a derailment) was that ( ... )
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Re: Evil!Willow, I do agree that they chickened out there. But if they'd really gone for that, I think my own personal reaction would've really depended on when it happened, and why. If she got vamped, that could've been great (although it conceivably would've deprived us of "The Wish" and "Dopplegangland" and that would've been tragic). If it was corruption-from-too-much-magic, that could also have been done well, but yeah, the overt magic-as-addiction metaphor was kind of clunky and a derailment of the point, which was much better illustrated by messing with, e.g., the curse on Oz and werewolf-girl or messing with Tara's mind. So I'm kind of fifty-fifty on how well I'd expect Joss et al. to handle such a plotline. If, however, the tipping point was Tara's death...I'm just not all that comfortable with the "Bury Your Gays," wrathful lesbian trope as it is, and I think that would just have made it all the more glaring ( ... )
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That is really interesting about Duncan and Logan. I've watched the first season, and I assumed that all that development of Logan's character was planned. You're right, Jason Dohring has some serious charisma, and Duncan's actor... didn't, so much. I never disliked Duncan, but I certainly was not inspired by the actor's performance.
I have to laugh, though, at your description of "A rare case where a het ship got an interfering male character despised, justly or not." It is practically a shipper requirement that all Buffy/Angel shippers hate Spike and all Buffy/Spike shippers hate Angel. Also, everyone in both groups hate Riley. (Poor Riley; he doesn't get any shippers at all. He's probably the best comparison I can think of to Duncan.)
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On the other hand playing the villain is usually quite easy. You get to chew the scenery and make larger-than-life plans. The stuff that you have to do when acting on stage, only more so. Is it any wonder that you will get noticed more than the hero?
But the flip side of things is that the villain must be doomed, must face the culmination of their role (eventual defeat, hopefully on the petard of his own ambitions), or the play/story/fiction loses its mythic resonance. It becomes an everyday thing.
Great heroes need great villains. The reverse definitely isn't true.
An excellent post.
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