Vid Feedback 101
I was going to title this "Vid Feedback for Newbies," but that seemed kind of annoying. Then I thought about sub-titling it "What Vidders Really Want," and that didn't seem right either. So what, exactly, is this about? I'm glad you asked.
I see around LJ and in the occasional email I receive, where people who don't vid, don't feel qualified to provide feedback. Often their feedback is preceeded by "I'm not a vidder and I don't know what I'm saying, but..." or "This is probably lame feedback but..." and then goes on from there. I know how intimidating the language of vidding can be. I'm still intimidated by it. laurashapiro makes the point about how people are taught in college how to deconstruct written texts, but generally only film majors learn the language of deconstructing visual texts. And gwyn_r posted a few days ago about Visual Vocabularies and getting comments from a non-vidder and the lack of feedback confidence of non-producers in fandom.
This all culminated in my desire to share with you, my flist, what I, as a vidder, think about feedback from the perspective of a non-vidder. And I feel pretty confident that a lot of vidders will agree with me. And will let me know if they don't. ;)
Part One - All Feedback Is Valuable
My first important point is this: without someone to watch my vids, the value of my vids to fandom ceases to exist. What I mean is, I love vidding. And I'm happy vidding for myself. But I post vids because I want other people to watch them. So those folks in fandom who spend their time "only" watching vids or "only" reading fic, you all are the staple of fandom. (A little secret? Often vidders are so busy vidding, we may not get around to watching many vids ourselves.) The consumers are what makes fandom, fandom. If we were all producing works all the time, it would be a very crowded, little commented-on activity, and not that much fun.
What this means in terms of feedback is that your feedback as a consumer, whether you're a vidder or not, is important. Vidders value all feedback, whether from vidders or viewers. (For the purposes of the rest of this post, I will call "non-vidders," viewers. Because I'm lazy.)
So, viewers' feedback is important, and valuable. But as a viewer, you may truly not know what to say. I get that.
Vidding Secret #2: "I loved this" (or its less enthusiastic equivalent: "I liked this") work just fine.
Vids don't have quite the audience of fanfic, although it does seem to be growing as a recognizable fannish art, which I'm pleased to see. But a lot of people (as with fic!) watch a vid and never say anything at all. We see the hits on our website, but may only get a few comments. LJ has helped enormously with vid feedback, but there is still a huge distance between how vids are watched and how many people respond. I am leaving out here instances where you downloaded a vid and didn't like it and so chose not to say anything. This is purely for vids you liked but weren't sure what to say, so elected to say nothing.
Now, I know it feels really awkward (or perhaps even dumb) to just tell someone "I loved this!" I mean, anybody can do that, right? You want to leave feedback that expresses more what you feel, but you just don't know what to say and, more importantly, how to say it.
ETA: morgandawn notes how most of us go to see movies and can provide feedback on those visual texts. Much of the same ways that we talk about movies can be applied to how we view/talk about vids.
Part 2 - How To Leave More Complex Vid Feedback
Now we're on the meat of the post (finally): you don't have to know vidding terminology to make your point. Want to go beyond a simple "I liked/loved it"? (Which, don't forget, vidders are usually happy to see!) Then add a comma:
I loved it, it made me cry.
I liked it, it made me laugh.
This vid freaked me out, you did a great job.
Now we've got complex feedback. Not only do you tell us that you liked the vid, but you tell us fundamentally how it affected you. And that is awesome to hear. Ok, sure, there may be that twinge of guilt at making someone cry, but if that's exactly what I was trying to do, then hearing from a viewer that I succeeded is a really great feeling. It means my vid works, on the best, most emotional level.
And it doesn't just have to be emotions. You could also have seen an event or a character in a different light after watching a vid:
I loved this vid; I never saw Spike as a teenage girl before, but it works!
See? That's great feedback. And if the vidder has doen his/her job, then there will be at least one emotional or thoughtful element that you can respond to.
Now, let's say you want to go a step further, because there was something visually that caught your eye. Vidder Secret #3: Sometimes, we don't have names for the stuff we do either. Don't sweat the "official language."
I'm stealing this from laurashapiro, because it was an excellent point. The opening teaser of episode 1x12 of Battlestar Galactica has been much-commented on by viewers. They love the music, the way the shots are cut between the different scenes to give each scene more tension than if they'd played straight out. Those are the types of comments that you can often apply to vids as well. Here are some basic terms you could use to describe things that vidders do well (please note, these are not the only things to look for in a vid, just the most immediately noticeable):
- style/speed of cutting (is it quick, fitting the music; do the clips fade into each other, which makes it feel slower and more rhythmic; are two scenes cut in-between each other multiple times (i.e.: scene a | scene b | scene a | scene b | scene c and the rest of the vid; that's called "intercutting") and does that intercutting make those two scenes seem connected where they weren't before in the show?)
- use of fade/flash to white and/or black (do you find someone faded slowly to black at the end or during the bridge and that felt especially moving?)
- colors (are they especially bright; washed out; does the vid feel all over sort of reddish or bluish?)
- lyrics (do a couple of moments stand out for you because of the clip that was used with the lyric; it doesn't have to be that it matches the lyric literally (i.e., the song says "fire" and the clip is one of a fire), it could be that the vidder has metaphorically interpreted the lyrics (back to the fire example, the lyric may be interpreting it as the fire of one's convictions, so they use a clip of someone at a political rally)
- the movement in the vid (is there a scene where someone opens a door and then the vidder cuts to a completely different scene where someone else steps inside that you found really cool; does it seem like the whole vid seems to be swaying back and forth in time with the music; do you love when Angel hits himself in the head on the cymbal crash?)
You can take one or even all of these elements to flesh out your feedback. And they don't require any sort of special technical terms, as long as you're willing to maybe use a few extra words to describe what you mean. Another really great tool when commenting on vids is to use time markers. So you'd say:
I loved this vid. It really seems to bounce with the song, and at about 1:10 you have this moment where Chiana looks up just as the piano notes go up, and it gives me chills.
By the way, don't sweat getting the exact second something happens. Vidders will search it out and/or know what you mean right away.
My almost-final point is that you may have watched the vid, and you may have identified the one (or two or three) things that really stuck out for you and worked for you about this vid, but you're worried that that's not what the vidder meant to do. Maybe you didn't see it right, you think, because you're not a vidder.
Let me tell you - if you see something in one of my vids that I didn't "intend," and you tell me about it, you're going to actually make me feel pretty good. Look at how complex my subconscious is, I'll say. I am Deep. And then I'll be all puffed up and egotistical, so there are dangers, but for the most part, it's awesome.
Seriously, though, I hesitate to say "there is no wrong way to interpret a vid," because I think fundamentally, yeah, you can miss the point. (For instance, finding sisabet's "S.O.S" a laugh riot or a condemnation of the characters - you've missed the point.) But even then, if you can say why you think a vid says that to you ("that clip you use of John playing rock-paper-scissors seemed so demeaning right after that shot of Aeryn"), then it's still a valid viewpoint.
What I'm getting at, though, is: don't second guess yourself. If you have a response to one of my vids, I want to hear what that response is. It doesn't matter whether it's the response I intended or not. For instance, I originally made "You Don't Bring Me Flowers" to be laugh-out-loud funny all the way through. And then people started responding that they found it moving, too, and I took another look at it and saw where my own need to balance the drama/comedy had seeped into the vid, and I realized that I'd done that "on purpose," without noticing it. They weren't wrong in their opinions. Neither were the people who found it all over-the-top funny. Often responses will be colored by your own emotional attachment (or not) to the subject of the vid; again, totally valid.
My final comment is: if you really want to give slightly more complex feedback, watch the vid more than once. I cannot tell you how much different it is to watch a vid a second (or third or more) time. Also, if you watch a vid once and decide to leave feedback, then when you watch it again you can look specifically for one of the elements I listed above, and new things will probably pop out at you, too. A vid is generally 3-5 minutes, and especially with the speed of some of the cuts we see, you're bound to miss things. If I'm giving feedback of any sort, I always watch at least three times, but usually quite a few more; even just two times will help, though.
Part Three - There Is No Time, Let Me Sum Up
Whew. I hope that was helpful to non-vidders. Let me distill this into several bite-sized points:
1. All feedback is important, from vidders and non-vidders.
2. Tell us what the vid made you feel.
2a. and/or what it made you think/think about, if applicable to your response to that vid. (Thanks, lapillus for this point.)
3. You can also tell us one or two (or more, if you want!) moments or elements that stood out for you. It doesn't have to be a thesis.
4. If you felt it, it's a valid viewpoint; don't second guess yourself.
5. For more complex feedback, watch the vid more than once.
All comments welcome - vidders and viewers! Disagree with something up here? Think I should add something else? Find it all still too difficult or confusing?
ETA: In the interests of spreading this information to the vidding viewers of the world, please feel free to link to this post.
EATA: sisabet talks about addressing a vidder's song choice in feedback. This is an interesting point and one I didn't include in the main body of the Feedback Guide because it seems to vary from vidder to vidder. But the overall sense that I think all vidders agree with goes back to: all feedback is valuable. And if you hated a song but loved the vid anyway, and you want to share that with the vidder, try to phrase it in a way that is not disparaging to the song, which the vidder probably loves. But song choice is another tool in your feedback toolbox.
EOATA: Constructive criticism is a much different subject than feedback, which is why I didn't address it here. However, many of these techniques can be applied to identifying what does not work for you in a vid, as well as what does. And, again, you don't have to be a vidder to know when something in a vid doesn't work for you. The key with providing concrit is to make sure that the vidder explicitly asks for that type of response, and that you try to phrase it as unantagonistically as possible (without losing the meaning). This is especially just my opinion, however, and varies from vidder to vidder. Most vidders who accept concrit will make it clear when they post.
10/28/2005 Edit: thefourthvine has completed and reported on her a Vid Feedback Project. It's really fascinating and is a great look at feedbacking from a non-vidder's perspective. I highly recommend checking it out.
-------------
In other news - I went to a conference for work yesterday and successfully schmoozed and handed out business cards. I felt like a powerhouse. Then I got back to work today and got involved with a problem on one of my projects and feel messed up and confused and I am wishing I was back schmoozing. And I hate schmoozing.
I also am trying to figure out the purpose of the new tag feature. I personally prefer putting posts in my memories; memories seem more user-friendly, too. Can someone enlighten me as to why I'd use tags?
Still behind in answering comments! Sometime in the near future, expect to see a post titled "In Defense of Stark," because I'm seeing a lot of Stark-hate on the TWoP Farscape thread and it's bugging me. Will it change their opinions? No, clearly not. But it will make me feel better.
I see around LJ and in the occasional email I receive, where people who don't vid, don't feel qualified to provide feedback. Often their feedback is preceeded by "I'm not a vidder and I don't know what I'm saying, but..." or "This is probably lame feedback but..." and then goes on from there. I know how intimidating the language of vidding can be. I'm still intimidated by it. laurashapiro makes the point about how people are taught in college how to deconstruct written texts, but generally only film majors learn the language of deconstructing visual texts. And gwyn_r posted a few days ago about Visual Vocabularies and getting comments from a non-vidder and the lack of feedback confidence of non-producers in fandom.
This all culminated in my desire to share with you, my flist, what I, as a vidder, think about feedback from the perspective of a non-vidder. And I feel pretty confident that a lot of vidders will agree with me. And will let me know if they don't. ;)
Part One - All Feedback Is Valuable
My first important point is this: without someone to watch my vids, the value of my vids to fandom ceases to exist. What I mean is, I love vidding. And I'm happy vidding for myself. But I post vids because I want other people to watch them. So those folks in fandom who spend their time "only" watching vids or "only" reading fic, you all are the staple of fandom. (A little secret? Often vidders are so busy vidding, we may not get around to watching many vids ourselves.) The consumers are what makes fandom, fandom. If we were all producing works all the time, it would be a very crowded, little commented-on activity, and not that much fun.
What this means in terms of feedback is that your feedback as a consumer, whether you're a vidder or not, is important. Vidders value all feedback, whether from vidders or viewers. (For the purposes of the rest of this post, I will call "non-vidders," viewers. Because I'm lazy.)
So, viewers' feedback is important, and valuable. But as a viewer, you may truly not know what to say. I get that.
Vidding Secret #2: "I loved this" (or its less enthusiastic equivalent: "I liked this") work just fine.
Vids don't have quite the audience of fanfic, although it does seem to be growing as a recognizable fannish art, which I'm pleased to see. But a lot of people (as with fic!) watch a vid and never say anything at all. We see the hits on our website, but may only get a few comments. LJ has helped enormously with vid feedback, but there is still a huge distance between how vids are watched and how many people respond. I am leaving out here instances where you downloaded a vid and didn't like it and so chose not to say anything. This is purely for vids you liked but weren't sure what to say, so elected to say nothing.
Now, I know it feels really awkward (or perhaps even dumb) to just tell someone "I loved this!" I mean, anybody can do that, right? You want to leave feedback that expresses more what you feel, but you just don't know what to say and, more importantly, how to say it.
ETA: morgandawn notes how most of us go to see movies and can provide feedback on those visual texts. Much of the same ways that we talk about movies can be applied to how we view/talk about vids.
Part 2 - How To Leave More Complex Vid Feedback
Now we're on the meat of the post (finally): you don't have to know vidding terminology to make your point. Want to go beyond a simple "I liked/loved it"? (Which, don't forget, vidders are usually happy to see!) Then add a comma:
I loved it, it made me cry.
I liked it, it made me laugh.
This vid freaked me out, you did a great job.
Now we've got complex feedback. Not only do you tell us that you liked the vid, but you tell us fundamentally how it affected you. And that is awesome to hear. Ok, sure, there may be that twinge of guilt at making someone cry, but if that's exactly what I was trying to do, then hearing from a viewer that I succeeded is a really great feeling. It means my vid works, on the best, most emotional level.
And it doesn't just have to be emotions. You could also have seen an event or a character in a different light after watching a vid:
I loved this vid; I never saw Spike as a teenage girl before, but it works!
See? That's great feedback. And if the vidder has doen his/her job, then there will be at least one emotional or thoughtful element that you can respond to.
Now, let's say you want to go a step further, because there was something visually that caught your eye. Vidder Secret #3: Sometimes, we don't have names for the stuff we do either. Don't sweat the "official language."
I'm stealing this from laurashapiro, because it was an excellent point. The opening teaser of episode 1x12 of Battlestar Galactica has been much-commented on by viewers. They love the music, the way the shots are cut between the different scenes to give each scene more tension than if they'd played straight out. Those are the types of comments that you can often apply to vids as well. Here are some basic terms you could use to describe things that vidders do well (please note, these are not the only things to look for in a vid, just the most immediately noticeable):
- style/speed of cutting (is it quick, fitting the music; do the clips fade into each other, which makes it feel slower and more rhythmic; are two scenes cut in-between each other multiple times (i.e.: scene a | scene b | scene a | scene b | scene c and the rest of the vid; that's called "intercutting") and does that intercutting make those two scenes seem connected where they weren't before in the show?)
- use of fade/flash to white and/or black (do you find someone faded slowly to black at the end or during the bridge and that felt especially moving?)
- colors (are they especially bright; washed out; does the vid feel all over sort of reddish or bluish?)
- lyrics (do a couple of moments stand out for you because of the clip that was used with the lyric; it doesn't have to be that it matches the lyric literally (i.e., the song says "fire" and the clip is one of a fire), it could be that the vidder has metaphorically interpreted the lyrics (back to the fire example, the lyric may be interpreting it as the fire of one's convictions, so they use a clip of someone at a political rally)
- the movement in the vid (is there a scene where someone opens a door and then the vidder cuts to a completely different scene where someone else steps inside that you found really cool; does it seem like the whole vid seems to be swaying back and forth in time with the music; do you love when Angel hits himself in the head on the cymbal crash?)
You can take one or even all of these elements to flesh out your feedback. And they don't require any sort of special technical terms, as long as you're willing to maybe use a few extra words to describe what you mean. Another really great tool when commenting on vids is to use time markers. So you'd say:
I loved this vid. It really seems to bounce with the song, and at about 1:10 you have this moment where Chiana looks up just as the piano notes go up, and it gives me chills.
By the way, don't sweat getting the exact second something happens. Vidders will search it out and/or know what you mean right away.
My almost-final point is that you may have watched the vid, and you may have identified the one (or two or three) things that really stuck out for you and worked for you about this vid, but you're worried that that's not what the vidder meant to do. Maybe you didn't see it right, you think, because you're not a vidder.
Let me tell you - if you see something in one of my vids that I didn't "intend," and you tell me about it, you're going to actually make me feel pretty good. Look at how complex my subconscious is, I'll say. I am Deep. And then I'll be all puffed up and egotistical, so there are dangers, but for the most part, it's awesome.
Seriously, though, I hesitate to say "there is no wrong way to interpret a vid," because I think fundamentally, yeah, you can miss the point. (For instance, finding sisabet's "S.O.S" a laugh riot or a condemnation of the characters - you've missed the point.) But even then, if you can say why you think a vid says that to you ("that clip you use of John playing rock-paper-scissors seemed so demeaning right after that shot of Aeryn"), then it's still a valid viewpoint.
What I'm getting at, though, is: don't second guess yourself. If you have a response to one of my vids, I want to hear what that response is. It doesn't matter whether it's the response I intended or not. For instance, I originally made "You Don't Bring Me Flowers" to be laugh-out-loud funny all the way through. And then people started responding that they found it moving, too, and I took another look at it and saw where my own need to balance the drama/comedy had seeped into the vid, and I realized that I'd done that "on purpose," without noticing it. They weren't wrong in their opinions. Neither were the people who found it all over-the-top funny. Often responses will be colored by your own emotional attachment (or not) to the subject of the vid; again, totally valid.
My final comment is: if you really want to give slightly more complex feedback, watch the vid more than once. I cannot tell you how much different it is to watch a vid a second (or third or more) time. Also, if you watch a vid once and decide to leave feedback, then when you watch it again you can look specifically for one of the elements I listed above, and new things will probably pop out at you, too. A vid is generally 3-5 minutes, and especially with the speed of some of the cuts we see, you're bound to miss things. If I'm giving feedback of any sort, I always watch at least three times, but usually quite a few more; even just two times will help, though.
Part Three - There Is No Time, Let Me Sum Up
Whew. I hope that was helpful to non-vidders. Let me distill this into several bite-sized points:
1. All feedback is important, from vidders and non-vidders.
2. Tell us what the vid made you feel.
2a. and/or what it made you think/think about, if applicable to your response to that vid. (Thanks, lapillus for this point.)
3. You can also tell us one or two (or more, if you want!) moments or elements that stood out for you. It doesn't have to be a thesis.
4. If you felt it, it's a valid viewpoint; don't second guess yourself.
5. For more complex feedback, watch the vid more than once.
All comments welcome - vidders and viewers! Disagree with something up here? Think I should add something else? Find it all still too difficult or confusing?
ETA: In the interests of spreading this information to the vidding viewers of the world, please feel free to link to this post.
EATA: sisabet talks about addressing a vidder's song choice in feedback. This is an interesting point and one I didn't include in the main body of the Feedback Guide because it seems to vary from vidder to vidder. But the overall sense that I think all vidders agree with goes back to: all feedback is valuable. And if you hated a song but loved the vid anyway, and you want to share that with the vidder, try to phrase it in a way that is not disparaging to the song, which the vidder probably loves. But song choice is another tool in your feedback toolbox.
EOATA: Constructive criticism is a much different subject than feedback, which is why I didn't address it here. However, many of these techniques can be applied to identifying what does not work for you in a vid, as well as what does. And, again, you don't have to be a vidder to know when something in a vid doesn't work for you. The key with providing concrit is to make sure that the vidder explicitly asks for that type of response, and that you try to phrase it as unantagonistically as possible (without losing the meaning). This is especially just my opinion, however, and varies from vidder to vidder. Most vidders who accept concrit will make it clear when they post.
10/28/2005 Edit: thefourthvine has completed and reported on her a Vid Feedback Project. It's really fascinating and is a great look at feedbacking from a non-vidder's perspective. I highly recommend checking it out.
-------------
In other news - I went to a conference for work yesterday and successfully schmoozed and handed out business cards. I felt like a powerhouse. Then I got back to work today and got involved with a problem on one of my projects and feel messed up and confused and I am wishing I was back schmoozing. And I hate schmoozing.
I also am trying to figure out the purpose of the new tag feature. I personally prefer putting posts in my memories; memories seem more user-friendly, too. Can someone enlighten me as to why I'd use tags?
Still behind in answering comments! Sometime in the near future, expect to see a post titled "In Defense of Stark," because I'm seeing a lot of Stark-hate on the TWoP Farscape thread and it's bugging me. Will it change their opinions? No, clearly not. But it will make me feel better.