SF is growing up?

[sartorias]

So I've been doing a great deal of (escapist) reading of late for various reasons that no one can fix, and had a thought about how sf has evolved during some recent reading

Comments

[mrissa]

Funny, when we were having the "could not have been published N years ago" conversation, the number we gave was 15-20. Which is not to disagree with you so much as to add exclamation marks to the end of your comment.

[sartorias]

Heh!

[rosefox]

As far as I can tell from looking at it in retrospect, the 60s and 70s were a great time for exciting queer stories in SF/F; the swing away from that started in the 80s and was firmly in place by the 90s. Diane Duane's first Tale of the Five book, about two men who are lovers and their assorted other companions (they eventually end up in a group marriage with several other humans, a dragon, and a fire elemental), came out in the 1970s. And the 1980s saw Swordspoint and Sing the Four Quarters and Gossamer Axe, all from major publishers, but they were clearly the tail end of the trend rather than the heart of it.

So I agree, I don't think Gentleman Jole could have been published 20 years ago. But I think it could easily have been published 40 years ago, and probably could have been published 30 years ago with some luck.

[merlinpole]

Steve Stirling and his writing circle at the time were new authors back in the arly 1980s, writing theifr fourth or was it fifth millennium gender-roles-and-sexuality-fluid series books. The 1970s and 1980s had a lot of experimenting with gender issues and social roles--Elizabeth Lynn's books (a fantasy series I can't remember the name of, A Different Light, later The Sardonyx Net...),various sword and sorcercerous novels and series (Frostfire and Thorn, in the first book in the series the swordswoman is looking for an abortionist and runs into the sorceress ho has a rather different proposition/solution to the woman's situation, being one a a number of examples... there were all the stories in Marion Zimmer Bradley's magazine and her Swords and Sorceresses anthologies, etc.), there was Chip Delany with Tales of Neveryon and Neveryona, Ann Mawell was writing what later became called SF Romance ith the likes of A Dead God Dancing, The jaws of Menx, Shadow of a Name, and the discontinued Fire Dancer series (she got MUCH larger

Crossways

[birdsedge]

Good article, and thanks for the lovely mention of Crossways.

I think you're right, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen would not have been published thirty years ago, or from a less popular author, which would have been a huge pity because it's a fabulous study of second chances and hugely revealing of characters who have been in the background of Miles' stories whicle carrying on a full life of their own.

Re: Crossways

[resonant]

I'm surprised it was published today by Baen, even. No conflict, no action (aside from a few incidents with salve and local anesthetic), no resolution of major political issues. Just characters that we care about, who like each other very much, getting through life.

Re: Crossways

[sartorias]

Lois's first books were published by Baen, and she has stayed with them ever since. They also published A Civil Conflict which was equally un-battle-like!

Re: Crossways

[birdsedge]

Civil Conflict was certainly un-battle-like, but there was good dramatic tension in the will-they-won't-they manner of Regency romance, plus mega-comic moments with butter bugs. Agreed it's not very Baen-like, but Baen know when they're on to a good thing. They haven't published all of Lois's books, of course. Curse of Chalion was pubbed by HarperCollins, as was the Sharing Knife sequence. Baen did publish Spirit Ring, but mostly they seem to publish her SF/Vorkosiverse books rather than her fantasies.

[asakiyume]

for various reasons that no one can fix --I'm sorry to hear this, and I hope the reading's been providing some good relief.

There really is a lot of marvelous stuff out there. And it's funny: speaking of classic-era SF, I've been entertaining the healing angel with some old Philip K. Dick stories (I'd never read any), and wow! So different from SF now. Lots of time taken explaining various bits of tech, which I get the impression is considered uncool now (nowadays, it seems like stories like to refer to the tech as just natural, because it would be natural to the characters). The plots are clever in a mystery-story sort of way, the dialogue very stagey, like film noir. And, most surprising, there occasional glaring continuity errors--like he just wrote the story out, bang, and never reread it, and the editors just published it as is.

[sartorias]

I wonder if Dick might have been high. At least, I remember wondering that when I tried to read him as a teen, and finally gave up!

[kalimac]

PKD's writing practice was to write two novels a year by spending five months just sitting there thinking out the plot, and then writing out the whole thing in like five or six weeks flat.

[asakiyume]

This seems borne out in the results (though I'm only reading short stories, not novels): clever, high-concept ideas, some loose ends and inconsistencies in the execution.

[queenoftheskies]

Sending you many good thoughts and concerns for the reasons you're needing escapist reading.

I enjoyed your thoughts over at BVC and have enjoyed reading the comments here. SF is my biggest love in reading, so I appreciate the ideas and also the recs for reading.

[sartorias]

Thank you! :-)

[bunn]

Forty years ago... so that's 1975. When I think of 1970's SF, the first writer that comes to my mind is Le Guin. Left Hand of Darkness. Planet of Exile. Rocannon's World. The sort of books that deconstruct and let's face it, kind of mock the White Male Hero Stands Alone kind of story, if they mention it at all. I grew up learning from Le Guin that that sort of writing... was kind of old

[sartorias]

I should have said early 1970s, when I stopped reading sf for ten or fifteen years. I missed Le Guin et all until later, when I did a massive catchup. But yeah, there were interesting women writing interesting stuff back then, just not as many as now!

[merlinpole]

Joanna Russ' When It Changed, which was an ur-feminist SF novel and shorter story, came out in the early 1970s. I think maybe you stopped reading SF a year or two or three too soon...

[sartorias]

I think so too!