2003 ALCS*

[organizedfamine]

Andy Pettitte won Game 2

Comments

[dj_underdog]

No. Baseball has been filled with cheaters since the beginning of time. And there's no way this list is a comprehensive list. The whole era was/is on steroids. Let's just move on.

[organizedfamine]

There were plenty of cheaters, I agree. But for the Yankees to have won 3 games of a playoff series by the virtue of proven cheaters, that's pretty extreme.

[dj_underdog]

And if Jason Varitek, Johnny Damon and Derek Lowe showed up on the list, there'd be a post here about how the Red Sox 2004 season shouldn't feel cheapened.

In fact, when the fake list "leaked" like 2 hours before the actual one came out, and Tek and Damon were on it, I was arguing with Yankee fans while they tried to diminish 2004 and 2007.

Maybe we're lucky a Red Sox associate was the one doing the reporting.

[aloha_moira]

YYYYYY. I almost wished Damon had been implicated so we could have avoided all the "Mitchell wuz biased!!!!111oneone" stuff that I'm sure we will get over the next couple days/months/forever.

[aloha_moira]

Can we not start this? It's pointless to say "so and so juiced, which invalidates this or that game." It's fairly clear that every team had a player or two who used, and you just can't say that a particular play was the result of steroids.

Baseball is too complex a game, too dependent on chance and luck... even the best algorithms can only determine about 60% of a player's performance over the course of a SEASON. Predicting the results of a single game or at bat is impossible, and it's ridiculous to pretend like we know what a player would or wouldn't have done in a single AB if they were/n't on steroids, or HGH, or horse tranquilizers, or whatever.

Just don't start this.

[organizedfamine]

I'm not saying throw out the game, I'm not saying hand over the championship banner. All I'm saying is that it's a little irritating to know that so many key Yankees players in that series were cheating. That's all.

[aloha_moira]

I'm not saying throw out the game, I'm not saying hand over the championship banner.

No, just saying that it strikes you as unfair that they won because they had so many PED users as difference makers. It's not exactly a leap.

I do get annoyed when known users have success, individually or as a team... I remember being absolutely apoplectic about that one Wakefield vs. Unit pitchers duel where the deciding run was a Giambi HR, for example. But we still don't (can't?) know the extent of use, or how many 2003 Sox were using (Nomar?), or what would have happened if everyone was clean. It's just stupid and inflammatory to start this discussion.

[organizedfamine]

I said it was slightly irritating. Sounds like you get irritated by cheaters as well. And if you knew during the 2003 ALCS that Clemens, Pettitte, and Giambi were all cheaters, I'm sure you'd be more than slightly irritated. I don't understand what's stupid and inflammatory about that.

[all_ahoo]

Not really. For one thing, I don't want to waste my energy being pissed about something that happened four years ago and can't be changed. Also, there's no way of knowing if anyone on the 2003 Sox was juicing. The only people named by Mitchell were those he had enough evidence for. Absence from the list =/= innocence.

[steaksammich]

I'm still waiting to see Trot Nixon's name pop up.

[bosoxngpm]

I would never expect Trot's name to pop up in steroid or HGH allegations.

[bosox06]

The report states that Clemens did not start taking steroids until 1998. Was Dan Duquette correct in his judgement that Clemens was in fact in the twilight of his creeer? 9 pages dedicated to Clemens.

[organizedfamine]

I got a kick out of that too.

[organizedfamine]

lol

[dr_zhivago]

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