Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 1amariseeJune 12 2008, 13:13:13 UTC
Finally, some time! Though it won't last as I am going back to Cat!City tomorrow night. But just for the week-end to meet with my friends, so not "on duty"!
And I've got a mountain of work. But I've also made progress on many other fronts, including potential studies. Sadly, that didn't help with the comment writing, and I've got to reply to chapter 397 at some point. It's been growing, but it's an interesting debate!
Even if Madara did lie and was indeed the one to send Kyuubi, that doesn't change the series of events that followed. And, as yet - and that's an important proviso - I can't think of any evidence that disproves Madara's description of events. Nor can I. I can think of obvious reasons why he would want to make sure Sasuke knows: pitting Sasuke against Konoha, "endearing" himself to him by telling him about his brother, etc. But these arguments really only work if Madara is indeed telling the truth: if he is lying, chances are, Sasuke will find out somehow, at some point. So this would potentially ruin any plan
( ... )
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 2amariseeJune 12 2008, 13:14:08 UTC
Ultimate responsibility lies with Danzou and those two elders, at least according to Madara. I've never seen Sasuke as being the sort to take revenge on those who were not directly responsible. *Laughs* Actually, I was thinking exactly that: I think this is where we might get a resolution about Daizou and the various conflicting political powers in Konoha. Because Daizou is pretty much the embodiement of what Sasuke is rejecting, while Naruto (and Tsunade)would be the more "progressive" and evolutionary way. And as you say, Sasuke always refrained from killing and is not in the habit of punishing all for the mistake of a few (which is in complete opposition to what has been done to the Uchiha, I must add: surely not every man, woman and child were directly involved in a revolutionary plot, and yet Konoha decided on the eradication of all).
But - as Suigetsu's comments at the northern hideout indicate - the principle of 'don't kill' is associated with being from Konoha. And to Sasuke, Konoha is, at least at some level, seen as a
( ... )
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 3amariseeJune 12 2008, 13:14:50 UTC
But... we still have that question of how his best friend died, don't we? It could be something as "practical" as needing the mangekyou to carry out the massacre, so Itachi had to acquire it (would work quite well with the overall horror of the massacre). Or it could have been a preventive action (his best friend would be most likely to figure out something was "off" with Itachi, so the threat needed to be neutralised before it became an issue) or a defensive one (Best friend already figured out something was off and needed to be taken out before he could alert anybody). Possibly a combination of two of these.
Remember the bird-crests in the hidden Uchiha meeting area. Yes, and connotations before that: didn't we have the eagle and the snake?
Sasuke's life has been dedicated to justice - in fact, the seeds of that were planted even before the massacre. Remember that conversation about the Uchiha as Konoha's police force?Yes. Which, in my opinion, makes it even more certain that he would take care of the offending people, but not
( ... )
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 1proanonJune 13 2008, 11:00:36 UTC
Though it won't last as I am going back to Cat!City tomorrow night. Say hello for me! Sounds like it's been one heck of a rough time for them - and for you, too!
I've also made progress on many other fronts, including potential studies. Oh, do tell! I've been doing something similar, looking into universities on folklore. But just looking into - I keep shying away from making that big step of actually contacting people or doing anything. ^^; Oh - and I finally got around to joining a kyudo group! Yay! Wow, am I out of practice...
And let's be fair: admitting to participating in a massacre is not the best way to endear himself to Sasuke. If this was a lie, surely there would have been better lies? ...well, here goes the Hat - and so that I can argue with you agreeing with me! *sighs* But - it's an axiom that the best lie has a seed of truth in it. Madara could well have told some truth - or even mostly the truth - in order to slip in one small but important lie.
Except that, as you say - if you lie, Sasuke will find out. And given
( ... )
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 2proanonJune 13 2008, 11:02:08 UTC
surely not every man, woman and child were directly involved in a revolutionary plot, and yet Konoha decided on the eradication of all. As I think I mentioned somewhere, we know that not everyone was involved in the coup. Sasuke wasn't. But it seems pretty clear that Sasuke was supposed to be on the kill list. But the second part of what you said raises an interesting and possibly relevant question... what is "Konoha"? Because "Konoha" decided on the eradication of the entire clan, and yet, at least according to Madara, the only ones who knew about that were Daizou, Sandaime, and the two elders. (And we really know nothing about those two, do we?) Then Sai said that he was "plotting to destroy Konoha," which could have been true from a certain point of view. (Danzou would not mind if Tsunade was no longer Hokage, after all.) And now we have Sasuke saying the same thing, only his primary target would logically be Danzou and those two elders... and, well, they're major leaders of the village, too...
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 3proanonJune 13 2008, 11:02:38 UTC
Because Daizou would be involved in this. Um... see "Obvious, Statement of." :-P Yes, Daizou appears to be a major problem on several fronts. It's Roots that concerns me, though. Giving control over a group of very young shinobi to a faction leader sounds like the makings of trouble to me. Plus, there don't seem to be that many young shinobi. Imagine if not all of his followers were new characters...
Interesting little detail that I only just thought of with regards to Danzou, though - he actually appears to be a parallel of Madara; someone who refuses to let go of the old war. Tsunade mentions that he dislikes her for being related to the Shodaime - probably for reasons similar to Madara's resentment of his clan for accepting Hashirama's truce?
I meant in terms of exposing it and taking the appropriate measures so that something like this could never happen again Yes - but the question remains - what sort of appropriate measures? We're looking at something deep-rooted here. It would be easier for Naruto to change the Hyuuga - there
( ... )
Comments 6
And I've got a mountain of work. But I've also made progress on many other fronts, including potential studies.
Sadly, that didn't help with the comment writing, and I've got to reply to chapter 397 at some point. It's been growing, but it's an interesting debate!
Even if Madara did lie and was indeed the one to send Kyuubi, that doesn't change the series of events that followed. And, as yet - and that's an important proviso - I can't think of any evidence that disproves Madara's description of events.
Nor can I. I can think of obvious reasons why he would want to make sure Sasuke knows: pitting Sasuke against Konoha, "endearing" himself to him by telling him about his brother, etc.
But these arguments really only work if Madara is indeed telling the truth: if he is lying, chances are, Sasuke will find out somehow, at some point. So this would potentially ruin any plan ( ... )
Reply
*Laughs* Actually, I was thinking exactly that: I think this is where we might get a resolution about Daizou and the various conflicting political powers in Konoha. Because Daizou is pretty much the embodiement of what Sasuke is rejecting, while Naruto (and Tsunade)would be the more "progressive" and evolutionary way. And as you say, Sasuke always refrained from killing and is not in the habit of punishing all for the mistake of a few (which is in complete opposition to what has been done to the Uchiha, I must add: surely not every man, woman and child were directly involved in a revolutionary plot, and yet Konoha decided on the eradication of all).
But - as Suigetsu's comments at the northern hideout indicate - the principle of 'don't kill' is associated with being from Konoha. And to Sasuke, Konoha is, at least at some level, seen as a ( ... )
Reply
It could be something as "practical" as needing the mangekyou to carry out the massacre, so Itachi had to acquire it (would work quite well with the overall horror of the massacre).
Or it could have been a preventive action (his best friend would be most likely to figure out something was "off" with Itachi, so the threat needed to be neutralised before it became an issue) or a defensive one (Best friend already figured out something was off and needed to be taken out before he could alert anybody).
Possibly a combination of two of these.
Remember the bird-crests in the hidden Uchiha meeting area.
Yes, and connotations before that: didn't we have the eagle and the snake?
Sasuke's life has been dedicated to justice - in fact, the seeds of that were planted even before the massacre. Remember that conversation about the Uchiha as Konoha's police force?Yes. Which, in my opinion, makes it even more certain that he would take care of the offending people, but not ( ... )
Reply
Say hello for me! Sounds like it's been one heck of a rough time for them - and for you, too!
I've also made progress on many other fronts, including potential studies.
Oh, do tell! I've been doing something similar, looking into universities on folklore. But just looking into - I keep shying away from making that big step of actually contacting people or doing anything. ^^; Oh - and I finally got around to joining a kyudo group! Yay! Wow, am I out of practice...
And let's be fair: admitting to participating in a massacre is not the best way to endear himself to Sasuke. If this was a lie, surely there would have been better lies?
...well, here goes the Hat - and so that I can argue with you agreeing with me! *sighs* But - it's an axiom that the best lie has a seed of truth in it. Madara could well have told some truth - or even mostly the truth - in order to slip in one small but important lie.
Except that, as you say - if you lie, Sasuke will find out. And given ( ... )
Reply
As I think I mentioned somewhere, we know that not everyone was involved in the coup. Sasuke wasn't. But it seems pretty clear that Sasuke was supposed to be on the kill list. But the second part of what you said raises an interesting and possibly relevant question... what is "Konoha"? Because "Konoha" decided on the eradication of the entire clan, and yet, at least according to Madara, the only ones who knew about that were Daizou, Sandaime, and the two elders. (And we really know nothing about those two, do we?) Then Sai said that he was "plotting to destroy Konoha," which could have been true from a certain point of view. (Danzou would not mind if Tsunade was no longer Hokage, after all.) And now we have Sasuke saying the same thing, only his primary target would logically be Danzou and those two elders... and, well, they're major leaders of the village, too...
I can't think that he would make a ( ... )
Reply
Um... see "Obvious, Statement of." :-P Yes, Daizou appears to be a major problem on several fronts. It's Roots that concerns me, though. Giving control over a group of very young shinobi to a faction leader sounds like the makings of trouble to me. Plus, there don't seem to be that many young shinobi. Imagine if not all of his followers were new characters...
Interesting little detail that I only just thought of with regards to Danzou, though - he actually appears to be a parallel of Madara; someone who refuses to let go of the old war. Tsunade mentions that he dislikes her for being related to the Shodaime - probably for reasons similar to Madara's resentment of his clan for accepting Hashirama's truce?
I meant in terms of exposing it and taking the appropriate measures so that something like this could never happen again
Yes - but the question remains - what sort of appropriate measures? We're looking at something deep-rooted here. It would be easier for Naruto to change the Hyuuga - there ( ... )
Reply
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