Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 3amariseeJune 12 2008, 13:14:50 UTC
But... we still have that question of how his best friend died, don't we? It could be something as "practical" as needing the mangekyou to carry out the massacre, so Itachi had to acquire it (would work quite well with the overall horror of the massacre). Or it could have been a preventive action (his best friend would be most likely to figure out something was "off" with Itachi, so the threat needed to be neutralised before it became an issue) or a defensive one (Best friend already figured out something was off and needed to be taken out before he could alert anybody). Possibly a combination of two of these.
Remember the bird-crests in the hidden Uchiha meeting area. Yes, and connotations before that: didn't we have the eagle and the snake?
Sasuke's life has been dedicated to justice - in fact, the seeds of that were planted even before the massacre. Remember that conversation about the Uchiha as Konoha's police force? Yes. Which, in my opinion, makes it even more certain that he would take care of the offending people, but not necessarily take it out on innocent people around him (to expand on the discussion above!). Even if he is emotionally mixed up right now.
We don't even know if the Anbu were in on it! Although it's hard to believe that they didn't think something was up. This is where it would be interesting to know more about Daizou and Roots. Because Daizou would be involved in this.
The Sandaime opposed what Daizou did. He was looking for other solutions. And yet, Sasuke's family is still dead. Oh, I agree. Idealism might not necessarily work in reality. That was just a "far out" idea. But let's revise this and say that, if, one way or another, the political situation gets re-addressed in Konoha, and the Uchiha massacre is "resolved" (obviously, they are still dead, so nothing could really resolve this, but I meant in terms of exposing it and taking the appropriate measures so that something like this could never happen again), then Naruto would then be a prime candidate to become Hokage, because his ideals would match the necessity of Konoha to change their ways.
In that respect, Naruto and Sasuke are not completely opposed. There is just the slight question of revenge against the nasty people who have done this to the Uchiha and Itachi. And since Sasuke is coming up against people who, for the time being, are still an integral part of Konoha, then this is where the conflict is.
I will admit that I'm hoping Sasuke has his own plan in mind for Madara. After all, Madara was also involved in the massacre, and he was not coerced. His involvement was purely voluntary. I must admit that's a difficult one: on the one hand, Madara seems to want to destroy Konoha. I can understand this, based on the background we've seen. But he didn't mind lending a hand in destroying the Uchiha first (and he's been leading them many years ago) if it meant that there was a chance that this massacre would motivate someone who could potentially take revenge on Konoha? I know he is manipulative, but that's putting an awful lot of faith in how things will turn out for Itachi and Sasuke.
Unless he has another plan up his sleeve.
new Sharingan! Interesting look, too - do you recognize the symbolism at all? The only thing it makes me think of is 'electron cloud'.... The first thing I thought was: well, if that doesn't work well with the stigma attached to the atomic bomb...
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 1proanonJune 13 2008, 11:00:36 UTC
Though it won't last as I am going back to Cat!City tomorrow night. Say hello for me! Sounds like it's been one heck of a rough time for them - and for you, too!
I've also made progress on many other fronts, including potential studies. Oh, do tell! I've been doing something similar, looking into universities on folklore. But just looking into - I keep shying away from making that big step of actually contacting people or doing anything. ^^; Oh - and I finally got around to joining a kyudo group! Yay! Wow, am I out of practice...
And let's be fair: admitting to participating in a massacre is not the best way to endear himself to Sasuke. If this was a lie, surely there would have been better lies? ...well, here goes the Hat - and so that I can argue with you agreeing with me! *sighs* But - it's an axiom that the best lie has a seed of truth in it. Madara could well have told some truth - or even mostly the truth - in order to slip in one small but important lie.
Except that, as you say - if you lie, Sasuke will find out. And given Sasuke's nature, and what Madara seems to be pushing him to do... well. Let's just say that... it could be a bit messy for Madara if that should happen. The best bet would be to tell the truth, and slant it to support what Madara wants. Or not slant it at all - if the facts speak for themselves, why bother? Which, by the by, might be why Madara admitted to being part of the massacre. After all, if he wasn't upfront about that from the beginning, he wasn't going to get anywhere. And besides - Itachi had already told Sasuke that much.
Sure, the majority of the village would not know about the decision to carry out the massacre. But some might suspect and know. After all, the village must have been alerted to the danger of the Uchiha somehow. Oh, the idea of the parallel with Naruto - I hadn't thought of that! But the village knowing... honestly, I don't think so. Informing the village of a danger... well, they probably knew that there were tensions, but the minute someone pointed a finger, that whole mess was going to go up in fire. I will agree that some people probably knew - possibly the Anbu. But I really doubt that the word ever got to the village as a whole.
But it does say something about how the higher-ranked shinobi reacted to Sasuke, in a way - I'm thinking here of Orochimaru's attack on the village, where Sasuke goes after Gaara. The reaction is that Sasuke is pursuing Gaara on his own and needs to be stopped for his own good, when in fact he's acting under orders...
I would not, however, jump to the conclusion that they regarded Sasuke with hatred. It wouldn't have been personal enough for that. Wariness and suspicion, yes. But not hatred. ...*blinks* Although if you also factor in the potential of rumor that the Uchiha might have been the ones to set Kyuubi on the village, or that they should have been able to stop Kyuubi but didn't for some reason...
I think this is where we might get a resolution about Daizou and the various conflicting political powers in Konoha. Because Daizou is pretty much the embodiement of what Sasuke is rejecting, while Naruto (and Tsunade)would be the more "progressive" and evolutionary way. And Daizou distinctly needs to be Dealt With. This is... what, the third time that he's shown up like this? There was Sai and his mission - which ran absolutely counter to the mission objectives Tsunade gave them. (But which warrant further thought, now that we know a bit more about the history between Itachi and Danzou and, indirectly, Sasuke.) And then there was Jiraiya's very direct warning to Tsunade, before he went off to fight Pain and die. And now we have this.
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 2proanonJune 13 2008, 11:02:08 UTC
surely not every man, woman and child were directly involved in a revolutionary plot, and yet Konoha decided on the eradication of all. As I think I mentioned somewhere, we know that not everyone was involved in the coup. Sasuke wasn't. But it seems pretty clear that Sasuke was supposed to be on the kill list. But the second part of what you said raises an interesting and possibly relevant question... what is "Konoha"? Because "Konoha" decided on the eradication of the entire clan, and yet, at least according to Madara, the only ones who knew about that were Daizou, Sandaime, and the two elders. (And we really know nothing about those two, do we?) Then Sai said that he was "plotting to destroy Konoha," which could have been true from a certain point of view. (Danzou would not mind if Tsunade was no longer Hokage, after all.) And now we have Sasuke saying the same thing, only his primary target would logically be Danzou and those two elders... and, well, they're major leaders of the village, too...
I can't think that he would make a decision about changing his plan and going after Konoha without careful consideration. Mmm. Define "careful consideration." Because certainly it's not a decision he'd make lightly - especially after learning that he'd been a pawn all this time. But the fact that he appears to be planning to do something drastic to Konoha... ...I still want to see him mind-walk into Naruto's head to interrogate Kyuubi about the truth of the attack.
I should read older chapters where we get snippets of Itachi-Sasuke interaction when they are younger, and check how the ambiguity was depicted, or if it was the same as this, except it was tainted by belief that Itachi was Evil. I reread them fairly recently (in fact, I'm almost caught up with the series now!), but it was well before these revelations. But given that Itachi's presentation of himself has always been ambiguous, I'd say that it's still there. Like you said, the question of whether his affection was genuine was always a big question mark. The simple fact that it was a question mark despite everything that we know happened...
Although, it does make me wonder about Itachi's behavior when accused of killing Shisui. Almost seems like he wanted them to know what was coming. Why declare your disgust for the clan and arouse even more suspicions when you're a spy?
It could be something as "practical" as needing the mangekyou to carry out the massacre, so Itachi had to acquire it. Or it could have been a preventive action or a defensive one. Possibly a combination of two of these. If you want to build up the horror, Itachi might even have been ordered to do it. Or - and here's a downright crazy thought... what if that suicide note was genuine? Itachi may not have been the only one who felt he was being backed into a corner between loyalty to the clan and loyalty to the village. He may even have volunteered for Itachi, or perhaps Itachi tried to stop him and was unable to do so. Either way, it would help explain Itachi's reaction. This clan and its stubborn pride is going to force him to kill them and his best friend already died for this and they're blaming him?
Just a thought.
Yes, and connotations before that: didn't we have the eagle and the snake? We did - although remember that Madara was the one who brought that up. (And it's hawk, not eagle.) Although... come to think of it, Sasuke was first, when he rose up against Orochimaru. Suffice to say that it's a repeated bit of symbolism!
but not necessarily take it out on innocent people around him Of course, that does raise the question of who is innocent in all this... one could claim that all of Konoha is guilty because they're living on the largesse of the massacre and sacrifice. (Yes, I know, unfair comparison and not Sasuke's style of thinking. Just offering an extreme example here.)
Naruto Chapter 402 - Part 3proanonJune 13 2008, 11:02:38 UTC
Because Daizou would be involved in this. Um... see "Obvious, Statement of." :-P Yes, Daizou appears to be a major problem on several fronts. It's Roots that concerns me, though. Giving control over a group of very young shinobi to a faction leader sounds like the makings of trouble to me. Plus, there don't seem to be that many young shinobi. Imagine if not all of his followers were new characters...
Interesting little detail that I only just thought of with regards to Danzou, though - he actually appears to be a parallel of Madara; someone who refuses to let go of the old war. Tsunade mentions that he dislikes her for being related to the Shodaime - probably for reasons similar to Madara's resentment of his clan for accepting Hashirama's truce?
I meant in terms of exposing it and taking the appropriate measures so that something like this could never happen again Yes - but the question remains - what sort of appropriate measures? We're looking at something deep-rooted here. It would be easier for Naruto to change the Hyuuga - there's something tangible to confront. But this problem... the best you can do is hope that the old generation doesn't pass on the poison. :-/ I guess... I can't quite buy that this is the sort of thing you can point at and say, "Never again." Because humanity can be capable of some ugly things. (Actually, I almost think that claiming, "Never again" might make it more likely to happen again - because people don't believe it will and therefore don't pay attention to warning signs.)
But he didn't mind lending a hand in destroying the Uchiha first if it meant that there was a chance that this massacre would motivate someone who could potentially take revenge on Konoha? Prrt? I was under the impression that Madara wanted to destroy the Uchiha, out of bitterness for being betrayed (by their decision to accept the truce) and then deposed as leader. Didn't Itachi offer help in killing the Uchiha in exchange for Madara staying his hand against Konoha? I may have misread that bit of dialogue, though... I remember thinking it seemed odd...
It could be something as "practical" as needing the mangekyou to carry out the massacre, so Itachi had to acquire it (would work quite well with the overall horror of the massacre).
Or it could have been a preventive action (his best friend would be most likely to figure out something was "off" with Itachi, so the threat needed to be neutralised before it became an issue) or a defensive one (Best friend already figured out something was off and needed to be taken out before he could alert anybody).
Possibly a combination of two of these.
Remember the bird-crests in the hidden Uchiha meeting area.
Yes, and connotations before that: didn't we have the eagle and the snake?
Sasuke's life has been dedicated to justice - in fact, the seeds of that were planted even before the massacre. Remember that conversation about the Uchiha as Konoha's police force?
Yes. Which, in my opinion, makes it even more certain that he would take care of the offending people, but not necessarily take it out on innocent people around him (to expand on the discussion above!). Even if he is emotionally mixed up right now.
We don't even know if the Anbu were in on it! Although it's hard to believe that they didn't think something was up.
This is where it would be interesting to know more about Daizou and Roots. Because Daizou would be involved in this.
The Sandaime opposed what Daizou did. He was looking for other solutions. And yet, Sasuke's family is still dead.
Oh, I agree. Idealism might not necessarily work in reality. That was just a "far out" idea.
But let's revise this and say that, if, one way or another, the political situation gets re-addressed in Konoha, and the Uchiha massacre is "resolved" (obviously, they are still dead, so nothing could really resolve this, but I meant in terms of exposing it and taking the appropriate measures so that something like this could never happen again), then Naruto would then be a prime candidate to become Hokage, because his ideals would match the necessity of Konoha to change their ways.
In that respect, Naruto and Sasuke are not completely opposed.
There is just the slight question of revenge against the nasty people who have done this to the Uchiha and Itachi. And since Sasuke is coming up against people who, for the time being, are still an integral part of Konoha, then this is where the conflict is.
I will admit that I'm hoping Sasuke has his own plan in mind for Madara. After all, Madara was also involved in the massacre, and he was not coerced. His involvement was purely voluntary.
I must admit that's a difficult one: on the one hand, Madara seems to want to destroy Konoha. I can understand this, based on the background we've seen. But he didn't mind lending a hand in destroying the Uchiha first (and he's been leading them many years ago) if it meant that there was a chance that this massacre would motivate someone who could potentially take revenge on Konoha? I know he is manipulative, but that's putting an awful lot of faith in how things will turn out for Itachi and Sasuke.
Unless he has another plan up his sleeve.
new Sharingan! Interesting look, too - do you recognize the symbolism at all? The only thing it makes me think of is 'electron cloud'....
The first thing I thought was: well, if that doesn't work well with the stigma attached to the atomic bomb...
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Say hello for me! Sounds like it's been one heck of a rough time for them - and for you, too!
I've also made progress on many other fronts, including potential studies.
Oh, do tell! I've been doing something similar, looking into universities on folklore. But just looking into - I keep shying away from making that big step of actually contacting people or doing anything. ^^; Oh - and I finally got around to joining a kyudo group! Yay! Wow, am I out of practice...
And let's be fair: admitting to participating in a massacre is not the best way to endear himself to Sasuke. If this was a lie, surely there would have been better lies?
...well, here goes the Hat - and so that I can argue with you agreeing with me! *sighs* But - it's an axiom that the best lie has a seed of truth in it. Madara could well have told some truth - or even mostly the truth - in order to slip in one small but important lie.
Except that, as you say - if you lie, Sasuke will find out. And given Sasuke's nature, and what Madara seems to be pushing him to do... well. Let's just say that... it could be a bit messy for Madara if that should happen. The best bet would be to tell the truth, and slant it to support what Madara wants. Or not slant it at all - if the facts speak for themselves, why bother? Which, by the by, might be why Madara admitted to being part of the massacre. After all, if he wasn't upfront about that from the beginning, he wasn't going to get anywhere. And besides - Itachi had already told Sasuke that much.
Sure, the majority of the village would not know about the decision to carry out the massacre. But some might suspect and know. After all, the village must have been alerted to the danger of the Uchiha somehow.
Oh, the idea of the parallel with Naruto - I hadn't thought of that! But the village knowing... honestly, I don't think so. Informing the village of a danger... well, they probably knew that there were tensions, but the minute someone pointed a finger, that whole mess was going to go up in fire. I will agree that some people probably knew - possibly the Anbu. But I really doubt that the word ever got to the village as a whole.
But it does say something about how the higher-ranked shinobi reacted to Sasuke, in a way - I'm thinking here of Orochimaru's attack on the village, where Sasuke goes after Gaara. The reaction is that Sasuke is pursuing Gaara on his own and needs to be stopped for his own good, when in fact he's acting under orders...
I would not, however, jump to the conclusion that they regarded Sasuke with hatred. It wouldn't have been personal enough for that. Wariness and suspicion, yes. But not hatred. ...*blinks* Although if you also factor in the potential of rumor that the Uchiha might have been the ones to set Kyuubi on the village, or that they should have been able to stop Kyuubi but didn't for some reason...
I think this is where we might get a resolution about Daizou and the various conflicting political powers in Konoha. Because Daizou is pretty much the embodiement of what Sasuke is rejecting, while Naruto (and Tsunade)would be the more "progressive" and evolutionary way.
And Daizou distinctly needs to be Dealt With. This is... what, the third time that he's shown up like this? There was Sai and his mission - which ran absolutely counter to the mission objectives Tsunade gave them. (But which warrant further thought, now that we know a bit more about the history between Itachi and Danzou and, indirectly, Sasuke.) And then there was Jiraiya's very direct warning to Tsunade, before he went off to fight Pain and die. And now we have this.
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As I think I mentioned somewhere, we know that not everyone was involved in the coup. Sasuke wasn't. But it seems pretty clear that Sasuke was supposed to be on the kill list. But the second part of what you said raises an interesting and possibly relevant question... what is "Konoha"? Because "Konoha" decided on the eradication of the entire clan, and yet, at least according to Madara, the only ones who knew about that were Daizou, Sandaime, and the two elders. (And we really know nothing about those two, do we?) Then Sai said that he was "plotting to destroy Konoha," which could have been true from a certain point of view. (Danzou would not mind if Tsunade was no longer Hokage, after all.) And now we have Sasuke saying the same thing, only his primary target would logically be Danzou and those two elders... and, well, they're major leaders of the village, too...
I can't think that he would make a decision about changing his plan and going after Konoha without careful consideration.
Mmm. Define "careful consideration." Because certainly it's not a decision he'd make lightly - especially after learning that he'd been a pawn all this time. But the fact that he appears to be planning to do something drastic to Konoha... ...I still want to see him mind-walk into Naruto's head to interrogate Kyuubi about the truth of the attack.
I should read older chapters where we get snippets of Itachi-Sasuke interaction when they are younger, and check how the ambiguity was depicted, or if it was the same as this, except it was tainted by belief that Itachi was Evil.
I reread them fairly recently (in fact, I'm almost caught up with the series now!), but it was well before these revelations. But given that Itachi's presentation of himself has always been ambiguous, I'd say that it's still there. Like you said, the question of whether his affection was genuine was always a big question mark. The simple fact that it was a question mark despite everything that we know happened...
Although, it does make me wonder about Itachi's behavior when accused of killing Shisui. Almost seems like he wanted them to know what was coming. Why declare your disgust for the clan and arouse even more suspicions when you're a spy?
It could be something as "practical" as needing the mangekyou to carry out the massacre, so Itachi had to acquire it. Or it could have been a preventive action or a defensive one. Possibly a combination of two of these.
If you want to build up the horror, Itachi might even have been ordered to do it. Or - and here's a downright crazy thought... what if that suicide note was genuine? Itachi may not have been the only one who felt he was being backed into a corner between loyalty to the clan and loyalty to the village. He may even have volunteered for Itachi, or perhaps Itachi tried to stop him and was unable to do so. Either way, it would help explain Itachi's reaction. This clan and its stubborn pride is going to force him to kill them and his best friend already died for this and they're blaming him?
Just a thought.
Yes, and connotations before that: didn't we have the eagle and the snake?
We did - although remember that Madara was the one who brought that up. (And it's hawk, not eagle.) Although... come to think of it, Sasuke was first, when he rose up against Orochimaru. Suffice to say that it's a repeated bit of symbolism!
but not necessarily take it out on innocent people around him
Of course, that does raise the question of who is innocent in all this... one could claim that all of Konoha is guilty because they're living on the largesse of the massacre and sacrifice. (Yes, I know, unfair comparison and not Sasuke's style of thinking. Just offering an extreme example here.)
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Um... see "Obvious, Statement of." :-P Yes, Daizou appears to be a major problem on several fronts. It's Roots that concerns me, though. Giving control over a group of very young shinobi to a faction leader sounds like the makings of trouble to me. Plus, there don't seem to be that many young shinobi. Imagine if not all of his followers were new characters...
Interesting little detail that I only just thought of with regards to Danzou, though - he actually appears to be a parallel of Madara; someone who refuses to let go of the old war. Tsunade mentions that he dislikes her for being related to the Shodaime - probably for reasons similar to Madara's resentment of his clan for accepting Hashirama's truce?
I meant in terms of exposing it and taking the appropriate measures so that something like this could never happen again
Yes - but the question remains - what sort of appropriate measures? We're looking at something deep-rooted here. It would be easier for Naruto to change the Hyuuga - there's something tangible to confront. But this problem... the best you can do is hope that the old generation doesn't pass on the poison. :-/ I guess... I can't quite buy that this is the sort of thing you can point at and say, "Never again." Because humanity can be capable of some ugly things. (Actually, I almost think that claiming, "Never again" might make it more likely to happen again - because people don't believe it will and therefore don't pay attention to warning signs.)
But he didn't mind lending a hand in destroying the Uchiha first if it meant that there was a chance that this massacre would motivate someone who could potentially take revenge on Konoha?
Prrt? I was under the impression that Madara wanted to destroy the Uchiha, out of bitterness for being betrayed (by their decision to accept the truce) and then deposed as leader. Didn't Itachi offer help in killing the Uchiha in exchange for Madara staying his hand against Konoha? I may have misread that bit of dialogue, though... I remember thinking it seemed odd...
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