Language Learning is Fun!

[phloxyloxy]

I know that a bunch of people reading this are also total nerds, especially when it comes to languages, so I don't feel bad doing a little bit of advertising here (but if you want to skip that bit, there is a QUESTION AT THE END!).

I just started taking a FREE online course in ITALIAN at LiveMocha.com, after someone mentioned how it's way cheaper

Comments

[zwiebel]

yeah livemocha! i'm using it to learn portuguese :) there are some nice things about it and some annoying things... but it's free... and i like the fact that native speakers correct the exercises. a lot of them are really helpful, and you can learn slang that way.

i would definitely base fluency on vocabulary... i think being able to say whatever you want in a variety of different ways that all make sense. i think the key to fluency is definitely in the variety of different ways you can say things, and picking up on the stuff you don't learn out of a book (like the word "geil". it's hard to define though... i wouldn't say i'm fluent in german, either.
but even though you're not fluent (for resume purposes), you can still communicate in almost every situation. obviously, the best way to learn vocab is to absorb it from your surroundings.

[phloxyloxy]

Oh you're on it, too!! Neato!!

For some reason you mentioning picking up language from your surroundings reminded me of the fact that I live in an area where they speak a dialect that is sometimes so far removed from school-taught Hochdeutsch that it makes me wonder how much I would understand if people were speaking in accents I was taught to understand, using vocabulary I actually might've had a chance of learning in school. Obviously it's not all different, but SOME of it certainly is!

[existentialgoat]

I know there are certain dialects of Spanish that I have a lot easier time with--I'm best with Southwestern USA, Mexican, Guatemalan, and Castillian Spanish...and I know that I find Cuban Spanish and Honduran Spanish significantly harder, because they're just not what I'm used to! (And then I wouldn't even want to think about getting dumped in the middle of Catalonia...Catalan is WAY TOO DIFFERENT. Eep.)

[anonymous]

hmm.. i agree with your definition of fluency...but again, there are different types. comprehension, reading, speaking. the only thing i would mention is that sometimes, even if you are fluent, there will be topics you can't talk about simply because it's a subject that you're not knowledgeable in. such as... ochem, or physics, or linguistics. also, i'd say that a lot of people that do translation/interpreting will know beforehand what they're being called in, or choose to specialize in certain subjects precisely because of what i mentioned above. this way, you can look up vocabulary and familiarize yourself with what will be said/could be said

[phloxyloxy]

Well yeah, obviously I wouldn't expect you to be able to talk about topics you don't even know about in your native language. Either the base knowledge is there, or it isn't.

But for instance, being in a choir in Austria has been an interesting experience, because although I know all these musical terms in English, I have no idea what most of them are in German! But then the director will use the term, and it makes sense, and I file it away for later.

ALSO on a side note to that: I think it's so funny that people in my choir are totally unfamiliar with Italian markings like "sostenudo" or even "larghetto". Guess that's what happens when everything every little marking is always translated into your language!

[anonymous]

I think other comments have touched on this, but it really comes down to where you are thinking of applying and what standards (if any) they have. I think the problem is that even though translation/interpretation have been around, it can be a difficult field to categorize. AAAaaannnddd a lot of people don't realize there is a distinction between translation/interpretation and really don't know what they're even looking for. Example, they ask for a translator and assume a translator will be able to interpret. So, this bring me to another question...which area would you want to be in? Translation or interpretation? This could also help you with your fluency question. There are so many types of fluency to be had. :-) Also, the aside about Italian markings is awesome. Doesn't it just make you feel so knowledgeable?

[anonymous]

baaah! sorry. it's rebecca and i forgot to say that in the last comment. as of right now, responding to your fb, i'm looking at translation programs and deciding between a program in ohio and one in cali. which... if i'm planning on getting accepted to either, i should finish my applications!! :-)
rebecca

[fancci]

I'm lucky in that the language I'm learning has a government with a beuracracy larger than I don't even know what, and is OBSESSED with rules and certification

[phloxyloxy]

I *could* take an official governmental test for German - I know Germany has tests (one of which I could've taken when I was at the Goethe Institute if we hadn't left two days before it took place!), and I know Austria has something too that you're supposed to take in order to study at the universities (for real, not as study abroad).

Soooo I guess I could look into one of those, but as it is, I think I'd only want to take those in order to PASS them, and I'm not so sure I'd pass them at this point in time.

Survival in a country using a non-native language definitely counts for *something* but with globalization and the fact that everyone here HAS to learn English in school, it's not as hard for me as it would've been.....I don't know, half a century ago?

[existentialgoat]

How do you, personally, define language fluency?

For a long time, I felt like you did about the definition of fluency. However, I've since lowered my standards for fluency, after I discovered that most people (including those with whom I interact professionally) don't use nearly so rigorous a definition.

I used to think I had to speak a foreign language as well as I do English in order to say I spoke it fluently. But then I realized that my English is always growing and improving, and it's never just going to stand still and wait for my Spanish or Italian to catch up.

As a rough guide, I'd say that if you can have an intelligent conversation on a wide variety of topics in mostly-correct grammar that flows, without big jagged holes while you try to figure out what's going on, you're fluent. My guess is that your German definitely meets my rough standards for fluency...and then some.

How would you describe [your/my/anyone's] language skills on a resumè? Which system of proficiency do you use?My favorite system of proficiency is the

[phloxyloxy]

I think your answer to the first question is the difference between measuring fluency in a country where you don't need to depend on your foreign language to function and measuring fluency in a country where that language is the native language of most of the population. In the USA, I'd definitely say I'm fluent (enough) or more fluent than most people. But not here.

I'd seen the CEF before, but I know the US uses a different system, which is one of the reasons why I posted this question. When I was at the Goethe Instutite in 2007 they placed me in a C1 class, which I thought was a little too high at the time, but that's approximately where I think I still am. Definitely not to C2 yet.

Hm...do you think putting my C1 class next to my Goethe Instutite line on my resumè would work? That way it says something to those who *are* familiar with the system. Or would that be TMI and something better addressed in an interview?

[existentialgoat]

Ahhh, that makes sense. My estimation of my Spanish fluency might change if I were living someplace where I actually needed to speak Spanish all day every day to everyone.

Hmmm. I don't know whether I'd list the C1 or not. What kinds of jobs are you applying for with this resume?

[phloxyloxy]

What kinds of jobs are you applying for with this resume?

Good question. Ideally something where I would HAVE to use my German, in which case noting my level would seem appropriate.

For instance, there's a German-American society back home in MN, and the U of M(n) has a Center for Austrian Studies, though I bet their positions are filled by grad students.... But SOMETHING at a place like that would be neat.