Wiscon 31: What These People Need Is a Honky

[oyceter]

Description: Tom Cruise is the Last Samurai. Kevin Costner wins the heart of American Indians with his wolf dancing. Orlando Bloom, in Kingdom of Heaven, goes from medieval England to Jerusalem to teach the Arabs how to sink wells and transport water. Is there anything that can be done about this plague of Orientalist white-guy Mary Sue-ism?

Comments

[vito_excalibur]

Right, don't forget Dune. What the Universe needs is a honky.

[oyceter]

Hee, yes! Thanks!

[oyceter]

Yup, apparently they do! A woman in the audience mentioned they speak Swedish as well.

I alas don't know anything about the Star Wars books =(.

[oyceter]

Oh man, I loved RotJ when I was a kid -- it was the only SW movie we had on tape, so I've seen it probably 20-or-so times.

The reversal in the books sounds interesting, thanks for the FYI!

[perkinwarbeck2]

I think it's interesting to consider Shogun (1975) alongside The Left Hand of Darkness (1969). Both of them are explorations of "alien" societies, and both of them use the device of the visitor who is closer to the expected reader (I think it's as clear that Clavell, writing in English, wasn't writing for a Japanese audience as that Le Guin wasn't writing for a Gethenian one) who can be used as a pathway into the alien culture. They're both clearly in the tradition of the utopian novel where the present day explorer is washed up on the shore to make it easier for the reader to learn the culture along with the new arrival, rather than the immersive POV of a character from the society, like The Dispossessed or Memoirs of a Geisha. (Together for the very first time in a sentence!)

I think this articulates what is different for me about Shogun from the "need a honky" films. It's "start from the familiar and explore an exotic place" rather than "one white man is just what we need to save the world".

And this way you also get to see The

[estara]

I never thought of "visitor as translator for alien culture" as a POC-need-a-white-hero before... I guess that means C.J.Cherryh's Foreigner books are the same, although the guy IS literally the translator and not the Powers That Be. However they need his interpreting to survive the challenges put, so I guess it's a Aliens-need-human-hero after all.

Well I enjoy them anyway. She also addresses the problem of neutral interpretation and manipulation quite a lot in theh books.

[oyceter]

I think the difference between Cherryh and Le Guin vs. Shogun is that for Shogun, the "alien" culture is still a living, existing culture on earth and when descendants of that culture suffer from very real discrimination in this country. And that Shogun is one of the most mainstream depictions of that culture.

[chomiji]

Re your comment on "the trope of the desexualized Asian man": a recent article from the Washington Post may be of interest:

'Slanted Screen' Rues the Absence of Asians

It's a review of a show, "The Slanted Screen: Asian Men in Film and Television," that ran on public television last week (hmmm ... and here's a website for the show as well).

[oyceter]

Oh, awesome, thanks for the link!

Please clarify

[estara]

"The Man Who Would Be King (identified as a take on the trope),"

Sorry but I don't understand what you meant in the brackets, could you clarify?

And where is the white protagonist that runs the show in the Empire books? I thought the main person was the female Tsurani (of course she got help from her Midkemian slave AND from the queen of another species) and she kept within her society while changing the rules somewhat.

Or is the point here that Feist and Wurts aren't POC?

I'm half Arabian myself, but raised German, so I can't really say I can comment with any POC knowledge (particulary since I look like my German mother and never had the problems my brother had).

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

Someone in the audience said that the movie was about two white men who eventually kill each other and fuck everything up; ergo, it nominally follows the White Savior storyline but comments on it by having the white men be the destroyers instead of the saviors.

And where is the white protagonist that runs the show in the Empire books?

Not there, really. But it feels like a White Savior type book to me because it takes a POC culture (based on Japan) and then sticks a Midkemian (European) in there, who then leads the heroine to realize the ways of her culture are wrong and to reform things based on Midkemian/European values. Thankfully Kevin isn't the main character, but there's still the "I show you the error of your ways!" thing from the European-associated character.

Also, it follows every horrible trope there is for Japanese fantasies.

Re: Please clarify

[seajules]

Huh. The white guys in The Man Who Would Be King don't kill each other, but they do fuck everything up, partly by one of them trying to pass himself off as the Great White Savior. It's been a few years since I saw it, but I seem to recall some pretty interesting reversals of tropes along the way, including one featuring the sexy native woman to whom the would-be Great White Savior takes a liking. Of course, if I'm remembering correctly, there might have been other twists that weren't as cool. I don't know, should I worry about spoilers for a movie that old?

I haven't read the Empire books, but I remember rilina's comment on The Blue Sword, and my gut reaction of, "But! But! Harry kicks ass! Nooo!" Yet, she's right, that book is very problematic with regards to race.

There actually are stories that feature a POC protagonist as a Fish Out of Water in white culture. Unfortunately, they're usually of the Noble Tragic Savage variety. Not encouraging.

I do have to wonder if the way The Matrix movies ended up puts them in the White

Re: Please clarify

[estara]

but I remember rilina's comment on The Blue Sword, and my gut reaction of, "But! But! Harry kicks ass! Nooo!" Yet, she's right, that book is very problematic with regards to race.

At least she also wrote The Hero and the Crown within that society AND with a world-saving heroine who shows the patriarchy what's what AND has TWO true loves. Not too shabby, I think.