Wiscon 31: What These People Need Is a Honky

[oyceter]

Description: Tom Cruise is the Last Samurai. Kevin Costner wins the heart of American Indians with his wolf dancing. Orlando Bloom, in Kingdom of Heaven, goes from medieval England to Jerusalem to teach the Arabs how to sink wells and transport water. Is there anything that can be done about this plague of Orientalist white-guy Mary Sue-ism?

Comments

Please clarify

[estara]

"The Man Who Would Be King (identified as a take on the trope),"

Sorry but I don't understand what you meant in the brackets, could you clarify?

And where is the white protagonist that runs the show in the Empire books? I thought the main person was the female Tsurani (of course she got help from her Midkemian slave AND from the queen of another species) and she kept within her society while changing the rules somewhat.

Or is the point here that Feist and Wurts aren't POC?

I'm half Arabian myself, but raised German, so I can't really say I can comment with any POC knowledge (particulary since I look like my German mother and never had the problems my brother had).

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

Someone in the audience said that the movie was about two white men who eventually kill each other and fuck everything up; ergo, it nominally follows the White Savior storyline but comments on it by having the white men be the destroyers instead of the saviors.

And where is the white protagonist that runs the show in the Empire books?

Not there, really. But it feels like a White Savior type book to me because it takes a POC culture (based on Japan) and then sticks a Midkemian (European) in there, who then leads the heroine to realize the ways of her culture are wrong and to reform things based on Midkemian/European values. Thankfully Kevin isn't the main character, but there's still the "I show you the error of your ways!" thing from the European-associated character.

Also, it follows every horrible trope there is for Japanese fantasies.

Re: Please clarify

[seajules]

Huh. The white guys in The Man Who Would Be King don't kill each other, but they do fuck everything up, partly by one of them trying to pass himself off as the Great White Savior. It's been a few years since I saw it, but I seem to recall some pretty interesting reversals of tropes along the way, including one featuring the sexy native woman to whom the would-be Great White Savior takes a liking. Of course, if I'm remembering correctly, there might have been other twists that weren't as cool. I don't know, should I worry about spoilers for a movie that old?

I haven't read the Empire books, but I remember rilina's comment on The Blue Sword, and my gut reaction of, "But! But! Harry kicks ass! Nooo!" Yet, she's right, that book is very problematic with regards to race.

There actually are stories that feature a POC protagonist as a Fish Out of Water in white culture. Unfortunately, they're usually of the Noble Tragic Savage variety. Not encouraging.

I do have to wonder if the way The Matrix movies ended up puts them in the White

Re: Please clarify

[estara]

but I remember rilina's comment on The Blue Sword, and my gut reaction of, "But! But! Harry kicks ass! Nooo!" Yet, she's right, that book is very problematic with regards to race.

At least she also wrote The Hero and the Crown within that society AND with a world-saving heroine who shows the patriarchy what's what AND has TWO true loves. Not too shabby, I think.

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

It's true, although I'd argue that the society of The Hero and the Crown reads as white. Which is not to say that it doesn't have a cool two true love thing and a take on the patriarchy.

Re: Please clarify

[estara]

well geographically both are Damar, just several hundreds/thousands ? of years apart and the heroine of the Blue Sword even sees Aerin in some campfire and meets Lute, as far as I remember. .. ought to reread sometime soon

Re: Please clarify

[rilina]

The Hero and the Crown is also problematic because Aerin is coded as being different racially from the people she saves; she's described as being red-haired and green-eyed and thus different. It's still a honky story, if perhaps marginally less problematic than The Blue Sword.

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

Thank you!

Re: Please clarify

[mkcs]

I saw it as much more problematic, in that sense, than 'The Blue Sword

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

Good points about the problematics of "Hero and the Crown" being even more hidden. Though the general response to "Blue Sword" as colonialist is usually a rejection of "Blue Sword" as racist, probably because it's a childhood favorite of so many.

I was surprised, reading this thread, to find people who'd read Aerin's family as 'coded white', when there is explicit discussion of the skin colours in the book, although I suppose if one read it before 'The Blue Sword' and one skipped over a few passages, one might very well miss it.

I think I ended up reading Aerin as coded white because of her hair and her eyes, and because I think I read "Hero and Crown" before "Blue Sword." The other part may also be because the culture feels very Eurofantasy-esque.

On the other hand, I think I need to reread to make more notes about skin color and dynamics and whatnot in the books; it's been so long that I'm really doubting my memory.

Re: Please clarify

[mkcs]

Having thought a bit further, I think one can actually make at least a reasonable argument for Aerin's not being coded white. It depends on the viewpoint of the reader, partly

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

One could argue that this is intended to work like 'A Wizard of Earthsea', which uses brown=normal and white=savage to make a point about the overwhelming 'whiteness' of fantasy while also providing a good fantasy novel with a hero of colour.

The difference is in the viewpoint character, of course. Aerin is definitely white-skinned.Well, the last sentence is basically my problem with the book and why I think it falls into the category of "white savior." It's great that the background people are POC, but it means that once again, we don't have a POC protagonist and a white main character that saves the day

Re: Please clarify

[estara]

There can be a huge difference between what the author intends and what they actually end up writing.

And I think this is it, here.

Harry's mixed blood does mix things up there, a bit, but really not much.

Re: Please clarify

[oyceter]

Oh, that's interesting! I think I read THATC first, which also totally read as white, but with TBS, I thought they were desert nomads and didn't get the connection with THATC for some time. So that probably skews things too.