Do we hurt the cause by excluding less-than-perfect allies
I don't think so, especially when it comes to men. When it comes to feminist discussion and inclusion, I think men, those with an earnest interest in learning where these discussions come from, benefit more from taking a backseat ride. This isn't exclusion, as they are welcome to listen as much as they please.
I think also that less than perfect allies have more of a tendency to be hurtful than vice versa.
or by stroking the ego of people that want to help but only until they'd have to actually confront their own privilege?
It really depends on where they're coming from, and if they're able to confront their own privilege in a genuine way. Of course most of us have been there; the back against the wall response of defensiveness. But if they're willing to get past that, and own it, then I think that its beneficial to all.
I should probably say first that I have an "oh noes misandry!!1!" tag that has been used in cases like this.
That said, I seriously lack sympathy for allies of any group who get butthurt when they're called on Doing It Wrong. In this case, men who want to be allies or label themselves feminists need to shut up and listen when they fuck up. I think it's a lot more helpful than hurtful to exclude any allies who refuse to confront their privilege and just want kudos. Lip service helps no one if attitudes among allies don't fit with what's being said, which is what this seems to be discussing the most.
I don't think I've ever personally met a man in my life who was an actually good feminist ally, as much as a woman feminist- much less one that personally identified as a male "feminist." Ever. So I don't even know who these mythical "male feminists" she's talking about are. Where are they? Where do they come from? Are they actually related to unicorns?
That aside, there's a balance that I'm still trying to reach myself. I automatically doubt that a guy will have anything helpful to say in these kinds of topics, which may sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy if my behavior makes them nervous or makes them feel defensive from the get-go; I don't know. But the answer is definitely not overlooking their mistakes. I expect them to make them a bit more because of their differing background, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be pointed out. Shitty allies make the whole movement less legitimate than if they'd just stayed out of it to start with.
Also, on the point about male feminist leaders... this happens?! Holy shit, that's
( ... )
I do know a couple Real Actual Male Feminists... although I suppose it's telling that they're trans* and were feminists before they gained male privilege and continue to ID as such.**
**I'm really not sure how to word this without being rude. I feel that trans men [and masculine women, too] do gain male privilege when they are perceived by society as male, but they know firsthand how oppression of women happens. I've noticed that generally people who were perceived as female and are now not are usually pretty feminist.
Comments 104
I don't think so, especially when it comes to men. When it comes to feminist discussion and inclusion, I think men, those with an earnest interest in learning where these discussions come from, benefit more from taking a backseat ride. This isn't exclusion, as they are welcome to listen as much as they please.
I think also that less than perfect allies have more of a tendency to be hurtful than vice versa.
or by stroking the ego of people that want to help but only until they'd have to actually confront their own privilege?
It really depends on where they're coming from, and if they're able to confront their own privilege in a genuine way. Of course most of us have been there; the back against the wall response of defensiveness. But if they're willing to get past that, and own it, then I think that its beneficial to all.
Reply
That said, I seriously lack sympathy for allies of any group who get butthurt when they're called on Doing It Wrong. In this case, men who want to be allies or label themselves feminists need to shut up and listen when they fuck up. I think it's a lot more helpful than hurtful to exclude any allies who refuse to confront their privilege and just want kudos. Lip service helps no one if attitudes among allies don't fit with what's being said, which is what this seems to be discussing the most.
Reply
That aside, there's a balance that I'm still trying to reach myself. I automatically doubt that a guy will have anything helpful to say in these kinds of topics, which may sometimes become a self-fulfilling prophecy if my behavior makes them nervous or makes them feel defensive from the get-go; I don't know. But the answer is definitely not overlooking their mistakes. I expect them to make them a bit more because of their differing background, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be pointed out. Shitty allies make the whole movement less legitimate than if they'd just stayed out of it to start with.
Also, on the point about male feminist leaders... this happens?! Holy shit, that's ( ... )
Reply
**I'm really not sure how to word this without being rude. I feel that trans men [and masculine women, too] do gain male privilege when they are perceived by society as male, but they know firsthand how oppression of women happens. I've noticed that generally people who were perceived as female and are now not are usually pretty feminist.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
I'm sorry for the offense.
Reply
(The comment has been removed)
(The comment has been removed)
Reply
why did I do that
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment