Am Hanivchar, again

[onionsoupmix]

 
There is a popular argument for the veracity of Judaism and it goes something like this.

The Jews have survived for so long in galus. A small nation, a tiny fraction of the world's population, statistically speaking, the Jews should have long ago been assimilated or destroyed. And yet, through all the Crusades, Inquisitions, Pogroms and Holocausts

Comments

thanks OSM i loved this.

[anonymous]

so where are the romans? in rome, the rest of italy and the little italies of the world!
where are the greeks? why? in greece of course and the greektowns across the globe.
where are the egyptians? in cairo and the rest of egypt all of 81,000,000
still on their land and many many others in diasporas extending from the eastern mediterranean and across the globe to the persian gulf.
oh! and the great persian empire? well still trying to eradicate us.
the only thing that changed, is that zeus, jupiter, amon and ra are now mythology. these nations all turned into monotheistic religions of one sort or another. they evolved. just like we did evolve. our judaism today (yes even the orthodox) is no longer that of moses or david. the latest and most significant evolution -out of monotheism- is the adoption of qabbalah and it's pantheon of angels and demons along with a g-d with many ways to manifest himself.
hey, even the zoroastrians are still around worshiping the same deities that influenced our own g-d's identity.
Eshkol Hakofer

[antidos]

Thanks OSM !

Now tell me how you answer to the question of recently brainwashed person - what is the sense of life ( of course she knows it is doing mitzvos and listening to rabbi and gathering nitzozos kedushe )

[onionsoupmix]

If you are not religious, you can still believe that your purpose is to leave the world a better place than you found it, establish a legacy, etc. These are not ideas unique to Jews :)

Aren’t you glad that Karaite survived?

[24816]

I am also looking forward to welcome all the lost Jewish souls, including 10 tribes and haskala.
Please note that Jews preserved pretty much same religion (and Judaism preserved Jews), only the Land piece was missing for a while. And how many wondering nations preserved their identity? I can only think of Gypsies, who are much younger, and would look into their DNA as well.
With other nations it’s just the opposite - populations and/or believes shifted considerably. Only land stood put.
-FI

Re: Aren’t you glad that Karaite survived?

[onionsoupmix]

your argument works only if Karaites are considered Jews and they are not, as far as I know.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Re: Aren’t you glad that Karaite survived?

[24816]

I thought that they don’t have to undergo the same scrutiny during conversion?
-FI

[ruchel]

I'm under the impression that the Karaites used the "we're Jewish but not really" and were left alone by the Germans... unless I am mixing up with another kind?

[bringing_peace]

may I ask

1. how did the Germans get to Karaites - weren't they all in Israel at the time?

2. what does this have to do with the original post? - I just don't see the connection.....

[onionsoupmix]

I don't know of any group that used the "we're Jewish but not really" argument and were left alone by Nazis. They don't seem like the type that would have gone for that sort of reasoning.

[alexcohn]

This happened at least in one location, Lithuania (Lita). There was a Karaite community around the town Trakai (Troki), and when the Nazis came, they wanted to know whether the Karaim should be exterminated with the Jews. The story goes, they asked a respected Orthodox rabbi. This rabbi, having understood the bottom line, lied(*) that Karaim were not Jewish, and hence helped these Jews survive.
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(*) - the Karaim in Russia (in Crimea and Lita) used to claim, in XIX century, that they were not Jewish, or to be more precise that the Jews were not Jewish, while the Karaim were. The "rabbinic" Jews were arguing the opposite.

[bringing_peace]

The survival of a Jew IS a miracle if you take into the consideratioin the constant persecution.

In addition, you may want to add a paragraph or two about the disproportinate attantion, payed to the Jews throughout the history and how the Jews affect the history despite the small numbers.

[onionsoupmix]

The point is that just because some group survives, doesn't mean much about the reason that they survived and doesn't point to the veracity of their beliefs. The Karaites survived, most frum Jews don't even consider them Jews in the first place and they certainly don't believe that they survived because the Karaite's very existence is miraculous. So why should we believe the same about Jewish survival?

[bringing_peace]

just because some group survives

you can't call it "just" survives.
constantly killed, chased, robbed, etc.
it isn't "JUST".

there are very, very few nations (gypsies and that's about it) who can claim similar fate.

But the impact on the world can't be disputed (as far as I know).

[onionsoupmix]

That is my point. The Karaites survived, even though they were killed, chased, robbed, etc. So what. The Karaites are apikorsim and not even considered Jews by most people. We cannot learn anything out from the fact of survival despite the odds.

Impact on the world... remember,those were not the frum Jews impacting the world. The frum rabbonim do not allow most people to study science, nevermind accept the Nobel prize in physics and math. So I also never understood this argument- the fact that many of the nonreligious Jews achieve a lot in science and math leads you to conclude what about frumkeit and how?