Thoughts at 4 a.m.

Jan 09, 2013 21:18


I have a tag that reads "the mad linguist strikes again", and last night was a brilliant example for why I occasionally call myself a mad linguist ( Read more... )

deep thoughts late at night, languages, the mad linguist strikes again, rambling, random

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Comments 26

elfy January 9 2013, 20:37:24 UTC
It was fun reading all that, even if I have to admit I kinda felt like "du'h, yes!", as in ... (ah, I don't want to sound elitist, I'm sorry if I do) that is one of those things I talk to people since ... a while now (what it means for the general perception/gender construction if "male" is the generic form (in german)(with a few exceptions like Krankenschwester)). And exactly about that topic I actually posted a link some days ago ;) Well about that in german, not english, mind you. About the "InWoche" and the corresponding video about the generic masculinum and if/how it's sexist or not.

Talk more about the topic if you like, I don't mind :D

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oloriel January 9 2013, 20:56:09 UTC
I meant to mention the InWoche above. *facepalms* I'll probably edit that post a couple of times, anyway...

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, and little of this is new, but it kept me awake at night, so I had to get it out of the system. ^^

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cowboy_r January 10 2013, 00:51:00 UTC
I have occasionally made people laugh by describing myself as a Krankenbrueder. They know what I mean, and always correct me... but you know, I can't remember the correct word for a nurse who happens to be male, in German, and I always remember Krankenbrueder?

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oloriel January 10 2013, 08:44:22 UTC
It's Krankenpfleger. But when I was a lot younger and encountered my first male nurse, I called him a "Krankenbruder" as well, to everybody's amusement :D

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shadowbrides January 9 2013, 21:29:04 UTC
Oh my god, I had that exact same discussion in Latin class! And got the exact same answer! And asked the exact same questions! This is so weird, because I still don't know and raising those questions is basically a lot like resurrecting my 15 year old self hahaha ( ... )

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oloriel January 10 2013, 09:10:13 UTC
Other words that I suppose would have been exclusively male have simply become the default for both genders.

So it's basically a generic masculine singular?
Mind you, you can find this in German as well, especially in job advertisements, where they will ask for a Buchhalter (m/f) rather than a Buchhalter/in.

And then there are collective nouns that really are sex-neutral, like Pflegepersonal ("the collective body of nurses of either sex"), sometimes even in their singular appeareance, like Lehrkraft (fancy for "teacher", but without the gendered -er ending)...

It's cool that Dutch does (or did) that "femimine form by introducing -st-, because that's clearly what English did with brewster and webster. Yay language connection! :D

If you are talking about a large group of people and the word you need to use is gendered, you'll generally go with whichever the gender there are more of

Well, that makes sense, at least!

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shadowbrides January 10 2013, 18:10:19 UTC
Yes, I suppose that is it. But often enough it really doesn't imply gender anymore. There are some words that do have obvious gender attached, like "brandweerman" = "fire fighter". I suppose a female fire fighter would be called a brandweervrouw, but I've never met any and so don't even know! It could very well be they are called brandweerman as well. Obviously, the feminine form is also still used. It's just hardly obligatory. There are definitely words that almost always have gender attached, though. When talking about farmers, it's always boer or boerin (the in also being a way to make something female. The most commonly used feminine endings are, I think, in, e, st and es. Example; leraar/lerares = teacher, although I've heard female teachers referred to as leraar as well. And we have our own version of Lehrkraft! Leerkracht! There is also the gender neutral "onderwijsgevende" (literary "giver of teachings"). What is actually used also differs on a local level. The main difference between it and Germand and French (aside from the ( ... )

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nelyo_russandol January 9 2013, 21:46:07 UTC
Spanish is exactly as you describe French and Latin, for obvious reasons. I've asked myself those questions in the past, and my husband teases me about the group gender bias, saying that English is the better language for that reason (we have continuous banter over English vs. Spanish topics).

When I was at university I remember working out the solution of difficult Maths/Physics problems at similar uncivilised times, after having failed to do so during normal hours... ;o)

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oloriel January 10 2013, 09:19:10 UTC
Well, but English actually has gender bias even in the singular, so it definitely isn't "better" in that sense! ;)

When there's something important on my mind, sure - but this was just random stuff. I mean, it's not like I'm writing a thesis on linguistic gender or anything of the sort!

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sermanya January 9 2013, 23:09:21 UTC
...interesting thought. I think I have to have a look at that book you cited one day ( ... )

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oloriel January 10 2013, 09:20:52 UTC
Well, "Liebe Kollegin und Kollegen" does sound odd, but it's only fair. If you were a group of ten women and there was one lonely guy, HE'd probably be offended if everyone addressed your group as "Liebe Kolleginnen" without even mentioning him ;)

He pointed out that the correct grammatical use would be "two females", "two males" and "two of different gender".
Oh, awesome! I wish you still knew which was which. ^^

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sermanya January 10 2013, 09:51:18 UTC
I don't like it when someone points out that I am somehting special because I'm female. I'm perfectly happy being called "Student", "Ingenieur", "Techniker", etc. I want to be one among equals and not "this one special ... err ... woman..." I am happy that my Dipl.-Ing. certificate says "Diplomingenieur" and not "Diplomingenieurin" which still wouldn't sound as odd as "Doktorin". They'll call me this in Aachen and I'll try everything to prevent them from doing so. In my surrundings a "Doktor" is somone who studied and wrote a thesis whereas a "Doktorin" is the wife of a doctor. (aaargl ( ... )

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oloriel January 10 2013, 10:13:46 UTC
I never understood women who insist on being called "Studentin" etc. Why would they want to be differently treated from men?I don't think they do. Again, if there's ONE male student and FIVE female students and the professor would say, in greeting, "Liebe Studentinnen" or "Meine Damen", I'm pretty sure the one guy would protest. Accordingly, when there is ONE female student and FIVE male students, it's not ok to just say "Liebe Studenten" or "Meine Herren", either ( ... )

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cowboy_r January 10 2013, 00:49:29 UTC
The first female knight in the SCA, Sir Trudy, is a delightful person. I had the honor of getting to know her one night at Estrella war, and she said that she had elected to be Sir Trudy, not Dame Trudy, because her research told her that women in the middle ages used the masculine title for a masculine job when they held it. Your rambling about blacksmiths reminded me of that.

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oloriel January 10 2013, 09:24:08 UTC
Hmmm... I don't think that Anne the blacksmith would have been "Master Anne" to her apprentices, though! XD

When I was twelve or so, I bought a wooden dagger at a Ren-Faire-like festival and the guy who sold them also offered to solder one's name onto the handle. The boys all got Ritter Tom and the like and the girls all got Ritterfräulein Sabine. But I insisted that I wanted Knappe Christiane (and not Knäppin!)

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