On the middle-earthly Middle Ages - a ramble.

[oloriel]

One of today's yesterday's prompts for B2MeM is "Middle-earth = Middle Ages" on the Silmarillion Fanon card, which means we are to create something that contradicts that particular fanon.

Comments

[macalla_]

Oh JA! Ich kenne eine ganze Menge LARPer, die wesentlich besser angezogen sind als so mancher "MA"-Verein-Vertreter.

Je länger ich in der Szene herumschnuppere, desto eher fallen mir Kriterien wie 'Mühe' und 'Sorgfalt' auf. Und das hat keinerlei Genre-Grenzen.

[oloriel]

So isses. Natürlich gibt es lieblos ausgestattete Elfen mit schlecht angeklebten Ohren und Pannesamt-Kleidern. Es gibt aber auch die filmreifen Vertreter ihrer Gattung. Und andersherum gibt's in MA-Vereinen natürlich Leute, die wahnsinnig viel Aufwand in gut recherchierte und gut gemachte historiengetreue Ausrüstung stecken. Neben denen gibt's aber eben auch die Piratenhemd+Motorradhosenfraktion...

[rhapsody11]

Oh my.. I love this rant! Whenever an utterly uninformed canatic comes up with the cheese did not exist in the middle ages, I just choke on whatever I was drinking at that moment. I mean seriously? Cheese existed in our country *prior* the middle ages, I mean Julius Caesar (!!) wrote in Commentarii de bello Gallico that in our region cheese was consumed. That's even prior the Middle Ages. Even more so, the Dutch were known to export their cheese in the Middle Ages.

This always makes me shake my head and I then think: you better get your facts straight before such nonsense is uttered and feelings of writers are hurt by such statements of a 'canatic'.

Have fun writing steampunk! :D

[oloriel]

Yep. But that's often the problem with canatics: They didn't actually bother to do the research. To wit: "Elves don't have red hair!!!", "You must use elleth and ellon!!!" and the like!
And because they're so vocal and so brutal, young (that is, new to the fandom) writers may be misled to think that they really speak the gospel truth. :P Which is why this "Fanon" card is a great thing! I just never came across this particular fanon, personally. That's what I get for being selective about my fannish platforms, I guess. (Oh wait. I don't regret that one bit.)

[samtyr]

Oh, very nice points. :)

This is why I love watching History Channel and NatGeo -- they often show "tech-oriented" episodes of "what was possible in the "middle ages" and compare it to more modern times. I especially remember one show where they compared a modern sailboat to a "middle age" one made of wood and built in a historically accurate manner (its sails were made of boiled wool, iirc) in a race. Perhaps unsurprisingly, the modern boat was not that much faster -- only a second or two. [g]

[oloriel]

I love such documentaries, too! It's so fascinating how people dealt with everyday problems like that in the past. Often it's just really clever use of pretty simple principles. Like hydraulics.
I suspect most of the people who go around thinking people couldn't have done this or that in the past wouldn't even understand some of the technologies that the ancients actually did have...

[spiced_wine]

"The Noldor could've brought any plant from Valinor, and I'm sure someone like Curufin could come up with the idea of a greenhouse", that's settled.
But only recently I was talking to someone on someone else's journal, and she said "I write my Elves too modern anyway - they have cheese. And indoor plumbing." (Which made me go "MODERN? The Minoans had indoor plumbing!")Basically my view, lol. I do tend to write of Elves living in Imladris for instance, or Tirion, or Lindon in the Second Age, as having indoor plumbing. Okay, not power-showers, but plumbing. As for the more exotic kinds of fruits, I'd go with the argument that some of the Noldor could have brought anything, and if they didn't have it, could find alternatives. When the Romans came to Britain, they planted vineyards, and although the UK is not famous for wine, they wanted wine, so they found places to plant vines, and if they were not great vintages, they served. (Besides, I know you can make lovely wine out of elderberries, blackberries, even parsnips! so

[oloriel]

Yeah, sounds pretty much like my interpretation. Basically the approach of our High School literature teachers: If you can explain it, it ain't wrong...

Trade and other ways of business/taking care of everyday needs aren't sufficiently looked at in most fanfic, anyway - I think. (Which is why I made an "Economy" card for this event, just to get people to write/think about these topics. I AM SO SUBTLE. ;))

[spiced_wine]

If you can explain it, it ain't wrong...

I like it!

Trade and other ways of business/taking care of everyday needs aren't sufficiently looked at in most fanfic, anyway - I think.

Well, the better authors do cover those things, I think, but the majority of fics don't, I agree. Maybe they think it's too mundane, but it's not; it's really interesting.
Tolkien does not mention it much either, but one can infer a lot. We know Mordor was not entirely a volcanic desert, because of the slave farms round the sea of Nurnen. The Dwarves settled where there were ores and minerals, I assume, and the Noldor used steel weapons, so they must have found deposits of iron etc in places where they settled, or traded one another for certain things.

[oloriel]

Well, the better authors do cover those things, I think, but the majority of fics don't, I agree.

Fair enough - often it's just implicit. And that's ok - often the focus of the story is elsewhere. But hey, sometimes it's just fascinating to think about what trade agreements etc. may have been there, and who got what from where by what means. The Dwarves won't have built that road just for the sake of getting rid of their excess stone and gravel, for instance! ;)

[hhimring]

I thought the cheese thing wasn't supposed to be about period, medieval or otherwise, but about Elves being too noble to steal milk from poor innocent calves? Maybe there are both versions out there?

I don't know any Valinor steampunk--although assorted interesting pieces of technology have cropped up in 4th Age Valinor as written by Pande and Indy. But Dreamflower has written a sort of space steampunk version of the Shire...

[oloriel]

No idea, to be honest. There's a German RPGing system whose Elves generally don't like things they consider rotten - and they don't eat cheese ("rotten milk"). If DSA got that from Dungeons&Dragons, that might explain why the cheese thing appears to be such a popular error. (However, those Elves don't drink wine ("rotten grape juice") either, so it's clear Tolkien's Elves don't follow that rule...)
But yeah, maybe it's some "too noble for that" thing. (Dude. They hunt. THEY KILL ANIMALS. Stealing milk is just the beginning!)

Eh, ATM I don't have much reading time anyway... I'll look into it after B2MeM though! :) Shire space steampunk sounds like a good replacement for Valinor, at any rate.