Unfortunately, I pretty much disagree with all of those points really strongly (except for very beginning about being a liberal and the war and whatnot). But you're right that it doesn't really do any good to try to change someone's opinion about these things (for the most part).
I am curious, though, are you against gun ranges? I think they're kind of fun. Not sure if you're against hunting too but that's another usage of guns that doesn't require killing people (poor animals :( ). Anyway, the point, is having guns doesn't have to be about killing people. I'm not going to try to even touch any of your other points with a 10 foot poll though since I think we'll just end up arguing lots.
I always kind of wonder about shooting ranges. They're sole purpose is to help people become more proficient killers. We don't have Rape Ranges or Choke Someone ranges, do we?
I don't personally believe in hunting--I think it's silly and ridiculous and annoying (though I fully support the massarce of deer, because they're the fucking worst, always running out in front of my car), but I should have been more thorough on my gun ideas:
I don't think any PRIVATE CITIZEN (not cops/military personnel) has any reason to own a HANDGUN (not non-automatic rifle/shotgun for hunting purposes). That's the cut-and-dry version of it.
No, they have other purposes. You can go just to have fun. I had a lot of fun when I went there recently. The thing about rape ranges and choke someone ranges is that those actions are inherently violent. Shooting a gun can be fun without any intent to kill/main/etc. Just like playing first person shooters and those types of games can be fun.
I don't believe in hunting either but that's because I believe that killing animals is wrong. No offense, but I don't really get how anyone who eats meat can believe it's wrong if the hunters are going to eat their kill.
I think handguns can be fun to shoot. It's certainly a different experience than shooting a rifle. Personally, I see no problem with people who are trained and gone through background and psychological tests owning handguns, but that's just me.
Well, choking people is fun, too. Various crimes or what not can be fun in a harmless play environment. Just like shooting a gun. Shooting a target piece of paper is incredibly non-different to me than going and choking a dummy or robbing a set-up fake bank. They promote physical on-duty training in an activity that serves no useful function to society. Is it likely I could go to a rape range, attack and assault a dummy and then never rape anyone ever in real life? Of course. But still...why promote it as acceptable
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I probably shouldn't get into this, but I'm curious and wanted to point out some things. So, keeping this very delicate, because although I kind of agree with you on some of your points on abortion (in a sense I'm pro-life), I wanted to point this out about pro-choicers.
You said: There is NO PRECEDENT IN LAW for "the government can't govern your body".Actually, the pro-choice people's ultimate argument is one concerning privacy issues--as in the pharmacy person doesn't need to know why I want birth control (it could be for sex, or it could be for a number of other things it fixes like irregular periods, acne, pms, etc). Similarly, the reason why Roe v Wade resulted in abortions being legal was because it was ruled as a violation of privacy to be forced to have the baby, or asked why you want the abortion, which is tied to "the govt doesn't need to tell me what to do with my body", but a little different. Argue that as you want, since I'm sure you will and it's not like it can't be argued against
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I agree in the right to privacy, absolutely, but I'm not entirely sure I agree that it has any roots in abortion. I may have private reasons for wanting to kill someone else, but thst doesn't make it right. And, this sounds kind of like where you may have been going with the pharmacy thing and I'm sure we can agree on it, I believe all pharmacists should be forced to carry and supply Plan B and the like as far as pregnancy prevention goes. It spares more people the preggers issue.
As for the other point...another argument I hate that I forgot to bring up. You can apply that to any law: People still murder, so why bother making it illegal? People still rape, so why have a law since it doesn't stop it? Etc, etc. Laws aren't in place to 100% stop an activity...they are there to deter it, and punish those that try to get away with it regardless.
Well...I have a whole legal/prisom system opinion, too. I should have covered that while I was at this. :)
I’m with you on the handguns, they’re stupid and pointless. Also, rifle range = good. Handgun range = bad.
But, well, like you said in an earlier comment, you hate deer. I live in Michigan. We’ve almost got more deer than people in places, and hunting those is fun and, since I’m a fan of venison, and killing my own dinner, I have to say rifles and shotguns should be allowed, for people who have passed their hunter safety training and whatnot.
Because, well, drivers in MI hit 100,000+ deer every year with their cars. We consider them large, tasty rats with antlers.
p.s. I’m new. I thought I’d jump into the fray. I found you via add_a_writer
Well...on the gun laws, I will have to agree to disagree & leave it at that (although you brought up some good points. I still can't stop laughing over this:
"I don't mind killing animals for food. It's their own fault for being so delicious." lol...yeah and if the cows didn't make me sick...I'd eat more of them too...:)
On DUI's & drugs, I completely agree with you there (except I think Marijuana should be legalized - I think it's almost a crime that cigarettes are still legal considering they are much more dangerous than pot, and that the only reason why the gov't still keeps them legal is because of the taxes they collect from it). Hell, I'm still ashamed of the handful of times that I have driven home from somewhere & thought when I got home that I had no business driving at all because of how I felt. I probably wouldn't have been over the legal limit, but still. It doesn't mean that I won't ever have A drink again, but I think my days of getting completely trashed are over.
A big point that the torture apologists miss (and which you missed in your criticism of them) is that torture doesn't work. Sure, torture just about always gets people to talk. But it often fails to get people to talk honestly. Israel experimented with a "ticking bomb" exception to their anti-torture law. The found that when they tortured people, they always talked, but they often turned out to be people who knew nothing, or people who knew something but lied. They also found that police often exaggerated the urgency of their investigations, thinking they could use torture as a short-cut. They abandoned the experiment, and now have strong anti-torture laws.
Guns
I'm no "forget the first clause of the Second Amendment" fanatic, but I think private ownership of weapons is somewhat more defensible than you do. I haven't shot targets since I was a kid at summer camp, but it was fun, and didn't turn me into someone competent to shoot people.
The thing that really keeps people from killing people when they're carrying weapons
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I am curious, though, are you against gun ranges? I think they're kind of fun. Not sure if you're against hunting too but that's another usage of guns that doesn't require killing people (poor animals :( ). Anyway, the point, is having guns doesn't have to be about killing people. I'm not going to try to even touch any of your other points with a 10 foot poll though since I think we'll just end up arguing lots.
Reply
I don't personally believe in hunting--I think it's silly and ridiculous and annoying (though I fully support the massarce of deer, because they're the fucking worst, always running out in front of my car), but I should have been more thorough on my gun ideas:
I don't think any PRIVATE CITIZEN (not cops/military personnel) has any reason to own a HANDGUN (not non-automatic rifle/shotgun for hunting purposes). That's the cut-and-dry version of it.
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I don't believe in hunting either but that's because I believe that killing animals is wrong. No offense, but I don't really get how anyone who eats meat can believe it's wrong if the hunters are going to eat their kill.
I think handguns can be fun to shoot. It's certainly a different experience than shooting a rifle. Personally, I see no problem with people who are trained and gone through background and psychological tests owning handguns, but that's just me.
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You said: There is NO PRECEDENT IN LAW for "the government can't govern your body".Actually, the pro-choice people's ultimate argument is one concerning privacy issues--as in the pharmacy person doesn't need to know why I want birth control (it could be for sex, or it could be for a number of other things it fixes like irregular periods, acne, pms, etc). Similarly, the reason why Roe v Wade resulted in abortions being legal was because it was ruled as a violation of privacy to be forced to have the baby, or asked why you want the abortion, which is tied to "the govt doesn't need to tell me what to do with my body", but a little different. Argue that as you want, since I'm sure you will and it's not like it can't be argued against ( ... )
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As for the other point...another argument I hate that I forgot to bring up. You can apply that to any law: People still murder, so why bother making it illegal? People still rape, so why have a law since it doesn't stop it? Etc, etc. Laws aren't in place to 100% stop an activity...they are there to deter it, and punish those that try to get away with it regardless.
Well...I have a whole legal/prisom system opinion, too. I should have covered that while I was at this. :)
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"I don't believe in abortion, but in one circumstance (the life of the mother is in great peril)"
So I knew I covered that. :) I don't blame you for glossing over it, though. It was a lot of words up there.
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But, well, like you said in an earlier comment, you hate deer. I live in Michigan. We’ve almost got more deer than people in places, and hunting those is fun and, since I’m a fan of venison, and killing my own dinner, I have to say rifles and shotguns should be allowed, for people who have passed their hunter safety training and whatnot.
Because, well, drivers in MI hit 100,000+ deer every year with their cars. We consider them large, tasty rats with antlers.
p.s. I’m new. I thought I’d jump into the fray. I found you via add_a_writer
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"I don't mind killing animals for food. It's their own fault for being so delicious." lol...yeah and if the cows didn't make me sick...I'd eat more of them too...:)
On DUI's & drugs, I completely agree with you there (except I think Marijuana should be legalized - I think it's almost a crime that cigarettes are still legal considering they are much more dangerous than pot, and that the only reason why the gov't still keeps them legal is because of the taxes they collect from it). Hell, I'm still ashamed of the handful of times that I have driven home from somewhere & thought when I got home that I had no business driving at all because of how I felt. I probably wouldn't have been over the legal limit, but still. It doesn't mean that I won't ever have A drink again, but I think my days of getting completely trashed are over.
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Torture
A big point that the torture apologists miss (and which you missed in your criticism of them) is that torture doesn't work. Sure, torture just about always gets people to talk. But it often fails to get people to talk honestly. Israel experimented with a "ticking bomb" exception to their anti-torture law. The found that when they tortured people, they always talked, but they often turned out to be people who knew nothing, or people who knew something but lied. They also found that police often exaggerated the urgency of their investigations, thinking they could use torture as a short-cut. They abandoned the experiment, and now have strong anti-torture laws.
Guns
I'm no "forget the first clause of the Second Amendment" fanatic, but I think private ownership of weapons is somewhat more defensible than you do. I haven't shot targets since I was a kid at summer camp, but it was fun, and didn't turn me into someone competent to shoot people.
The thing that really keeps people from killing people when they're carrying weapons ( ... )
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