Regardless, I don't think it's completely manipulation or completely sincere, but I don't think you can quantify how much of each is involved.
I agree. And I absolutely think Harley forgave him on the spot and they could just start all over again. It really is dysfunctional, complex and crazy! Just like the characters. :-D
I don't think you can quantify how much of each is involved.
And why would you want to? Part of the twisted beauty of this ship is its ambiguity, just how depraved the love really is, how selfish and consuming and in the moment. God, gimme this over Scott and Jean any day!
YAY! The more I think about it, the more I think Joker left it open for interpretation. I mean, he wants Harley's affections (whether because he cares about her to or feed his ego, either one), and I'm sure she forgave him instantly because of it (although he probably left her alone in Arkham for a while before springing her).
However, it's almost like laughing about her behind her back. That kind of gesture from anyone else would be thoughtful, but the fact that it's from him and probably not entirely sincere is a way of mocking her. I think he wanted to be able to tell a joke she didn't get.
That is what's so great about this graphic novel, is that it's still relevant today and can be discussed in this way -- in that people interpret it differently. And you're right -- the Joker would leave it up for interpretation, definitely.
I think he wanted to be able to tell a joke she didn't get.
It's funny that you say this, coz I think ultimately the joke is on him. I bet he DID want to tell a joke she didn't get, but it kinda backfires -- he still can't stop from wanting her around. She's permeated his subconsciousness -- in that he gets really offended when she offers up the suggestion "Why don'tcha just shoot 'em" as a way of offing the Bat, and yet he decides to try it himself.
I'm also sure on some level he is aware of this and it heavily influences his abuse of her. He'd consider it infuriating.
Yes, in that he resents her (the whole love/hate thing), but also I think there's a bit of subtext of that frustration when he gets so incredibly angry when Bats calls him Puddin'. Which is honestly, one of THE BEST lines Batman has EVER used. Seriously.
I think there is a bit of sincerity in there, mixed in with the benefits to him for manipulating her, and perhaps a bit of his propensity for cheesy showmanship.
I agree. And motto on the cheesy showmanship! Definitely. What did you think about Harley's (haunting) last line: "It felt like a kiss?" (Especially since I believe it's from a song about domestic violence... 'He hit me and it felt like a kiss....')
It does reek of abuse, I'd say. It's an uncomfortable line (not least because the idea of being kissed by the Joker repulses me, personally), because it's something that definitely is not good for Harley, and yet she loves it. It makes me feel bad for her, that one pretty gesture from him and she'll throw away her own well-being.
It really is chilling, isn't it? It's almost as though the more he shows affection/is caring towards her, the deeper into insanity she sinks and the more she discards her former life.
It is abusive and yet, it's almost as if -- she being insane -- it's "normal" to her? Her delusions/dreams about having kids with the Joker involve the children trying to poison one another and attempting to kill each other. It's as though in her crazy brain affection = violence. To us, rational people, it's absolutely wrong and like you said uncomfortable -- we laugh at the cartoon violence and then think.. oh, ew, ick.
And hahah.. agreed on this not least because the idea of being kissed by the Joker repulses me, personally.
I've mused on this before, so I'll just C&P it here: Joker's presenting of a single rose to Harley in Mad Love plays a key role to the dynamics of the relationship
( ... )
It's important to note that in doing this, it is clear he is no longer angry. Naturally, throwing her out a window is not a justifiable action, but in his mind it is. In his mind it was an entirely proportional response to the perceived slight she dealt him. Yes, that's sick but that's also the Joker
( ... )
Finally, consider the colossal effort of even getting the rose into Arkham - with a hand-written note. Whilst playing the system from within might be easy for the Joker, getting something in from the outside would be considerably more difficult. To get it into her cell, with the note attached, without it being noticed and removed, would've demanded some heavy duty coordination and consideration and indicates all the more it was genuine at its heart.
And that's why, like I said to 90scartoonman, while it might have been a sick joke in his mind, it ends up backfiring on him: in that he went to all this effort to smuggle the rose into her cell. Kinda makes you love Harley even more, doesn't it?
It's interesting that there's symmetry between the first rose and the second. I never saw it as a test before, but that makes a lot of sense.
I completely agree that the Joker is so remorseless, he can just dismiss the whole thing and move past it. His gestures are genuine, but you can never really predict what he's going to feel and when.
I find it interesting that before the rose scene, like you guys have brought up here already, was the fact that Batman called Joker "Puddin." I feel that on some level, Joker likes being called this by Harley. I think on some deep deep and I mean DEEP level it gives him the warm and fuzzies. Simply because it reveals a peak at his human side. And when Joker heard this coming from Batman's mouth, it PISSED. HIM. OFF. because I don't know if he wanted Batman to know that it's perhaps possible for Joker to love (in his own way of course).
It really has got to be one of Bats' greatest lines. Have you read the Joker GN? The line Bats' uses to Joker: "To mock you" reminds me so much of the one word: "Puddin'."
LOL deep deep and I mean DEEP level We're talkin' like soles of the shoes deep!!! ;-P
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I agree. And I absolutely think Harley forgave him on the spot and they could just start all over again. It really is dysfunctional, complex and crazy! Just like the characters. :-D
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And why would you want to? Part of the twisted beauty of this ship is its ambiguity, just how depraved the love really is, how selfish and consuming and in the moment. God, gimme this over Scott and Jean any day!
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However, it's almost like laughing about her behind her back. That kind of gesture from anyone else would be thoughtful, but the fact that it's from him and probably not entirely sincere is a way of mocking her. I think he wanted to be able to tell a joke she didn't get.
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That is what's so great about this graphic novel, is that it's still relevant today and can be discussed in this way -- in that people interpret it differently. And you're right -- the Joker would leave it up for interpretation, definitely.
I think he wanted to be able to tell a joke she didn't get.
It's funny that you say this, coz I think ultimately the joke is on him. I bet he DID want to tell a joke she didn't get, but it kinda backfires -- he still can't stop from wanting her around. She's permeated his subconsciousness -- in that he gets really offended when she offers up the suggestion "Why don'tcha just shoot 'em" as a way of offing the Bat, and yet he decides to try it himself.
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(hehe, see my ficlet 'Punchline' cos this is exactly what I explored in that one)
(I'm also sure on some level he is aware of this and it heavily influences his abuse of her. He'd consider it infuriating.)
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Yes, in that he resents her (the whole love/hate thing), but also I think there's a bit of subtext of that frustration when he gets so incredibly angry when Bats calls him Puddin'.
Which is honestly, one of THE BEST lines Batman has EVER used. Seriously.
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What did you think about Harley's (haunting) last line: "It felt like a kiss?"
(Especially since I believe it's from a song about domestic violence... 'He hit me and it felt like a kiss....')
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It is abusive and yet, it's almost as if -- she being insane -- it's "normal" to her? Her delusions/dreams about having kids with the Joker involve the children trying to poison one another and attempting to kill each other. It's as though in her crazy brain affection = violence. To us, rational people, it's absolutely wrong and like you said uncomfortable -- we laugh at the cartoon violence and then think.. oh, ew, ick.
And hahah.. agreed on this not least because the idea of being kissed by the Joker repulses me, personally.
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Joker's presenting of a single rose to Harley in Mad Love plays a key role to the dynamics of the relationship ( ... )
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And that's why, like I said to 90scartoonman, while it might have been a sick joke in his mind, it ends up backfiring on him: in that he went to all this effort to smuggle the rose into her cell. Kinda makes you love Harley even more, doesn't it?
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I completely agree that the Joker is so remorseless, he can just dismiss the whole thing and move past it. His gestures are genuine, but you can never really predict what he's going to feel and when.
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LOL deep deep and I mean DEEP level We're talkin' like soles of the shoes deep!!! ;-P
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