I've mused on this before, so I'll just C&P it here:
Joker's presenting of a single rose to Harley in Mad Love plays a key role to the dynamics of the relationship.
The first time he does this is when she is still a doctor at Arkham and the second time is when she returns to Arkham as a prisoner, badly injured after he pushes her out of a window.
In both instances, the gift is an act of manipulation. However, it's a complex manipulation with several different elements at play.
Joker took a gamble by giving her the rose in the first instance. She very well could've gone to the guards. In this way, the rose was a test. A test that she passed, for she didn't go the guards - she went straight to him. Perhaps indicating that something he maybe suspected of her from the very beginning was true. But the rose was also his way of expressing interest in her. An interest that was first indicated when he winked at her and then confirmed when he revealed that he'd been listening to the information being passed around about her and the peculiarity of her name had struck him. And naturally, of course, the rose was a way to intrigue her - it's a traditionally romantic gesture designed to set hearts fluttering. Although Harley was definitely out for her own interests and doubtless pegged Joker's attraction to her as a ticket to the big leagues, being as young and naive as she was it's difficult to imagine she wasn't also flattered and thrilled that someone like Joker was paying attention to her in such a way. But finally, the rose was an invitation - he already knew who she was. We see it - the way she meets Ivy's eyes - the way she blushes when Joker winks at her - this girl is ready. Batman himself says it. So the rose was a way of letting her know it would be okay to take that step over the line... It has been suggested more than once in the DCAU that Joker basically runs Arkham. The very fact he got the rose into her office indicates he was moving around the Asylum and into secure areas at will - it's logical to assume he could also escape as he wanted to. And, in Mad Love, when he does first escape, it is without her help. That Joker selected Harley simply to act as hired help is therefore contested by this evidence.
But even more significant, is the rose he presents to her in the final pages of Mad Love. Harley is badly damaged - several limbs are broken, her head is bandaged, it's reasonable to assume she has sustained internal injuries - and gearing up to swear Joker off for life when she sees the single rose, placed in a vase by her bed, with a note attached that reads: Feel better soon, J. It's a truly chilling moment and an incredibly romantic one, albeit in a very twisted fashion. But this is what defines their entire relationship. To understand it, one has to place it in full context of the story: Not so long ago, Joker was furious with Harley for going behind his back to try and kill Batman. Fury is probably not even the right word to describe the all-consuming rage he experienced in reaction to that insult - because that's exactly what it was to him: An insult. Humiliation. In his perspective she subjected him to an absolute indignity that he could not endure and he lashed out at her violently in response. If we are truly going to believe he has no feelings for her and no desire for her in his life, it was the perfect opportunity to eliminate her from his life forever, especially as he injured her so badly, broke her heart so much in the wake of his lies being revealed, that she was ready to walk away. Instead he makes this gesture of romance again.
It's important to note that in doing this, it is clear he is no longer angry. Naturally, throwing her out a window is not a justifiable action, but in his mind it is. In his mind it was an entirely proportional response to the perceived slight she dealt him. Yes, that's sick but that's also the Joker. Yet in sending that rose, he reveals he's willing to move on from it. Is he sorry? No, of course not. Sorry is not something he is capable of feeling. Remorse is not an emotion he knows or can understand. But that does not preclude him being happy that she has survived, or even concern. The rose is a genuine gesture - the words are meant. He wants her to feel better, and soon. Even the simple, directive way the words are stated, devoid of an "I hope you" so typical to such sentiments of well-wishing, affirms this desire. There's no apology, no entreaty of "please get better soon" - it's to the point, almost an order. He wants her well and whole again. In his mind, in his insane, hopelessly psychotic mind, neither his throwing her out a window or her insulting him in such a way have any bearing on the future. They can start again, as if none of it ever happened. There is absolute detachment from action and consequence. In this way, the rose is a manipulative gesture, but not intentionally so - which really makes it all the more manipulative. It came from a genuine space from a very sick individual. To quote zhinxy: The most manipulative thing about it, in my mind, is how it comes from a place and worldview so chilling and insane, that it's not intentional manipulation, but a genuine act of well-wishing from such a twisted and horrible mind.
Finally, consider the colossal effort of even getting the rose into Arkham - with a hand-written note. Whilst playing the system from within might be easy for the Joker, getting something in from the outside would be considerably more difficult. To get it into her cell, with the note attached, without it being noticed and removed, would've demanded some heavy duty coordination and consideration and indicates all the more it was genuine at its heart.
To close, with one final quote from zhinxy which pretty much says it all:
This is all so much more interesting and text-supported and even more twisted and tragic and wrong than "he's a calculating manipulative abuser at all times" isn't it? Why so many people insist so loudly I'm reading a much more boring story, I will never, ever know.
Finally, consider the colossal effort of even getting the rose into Arkham - with a hand-written note. Whilst playing the system from within might be easy for the Joker, getting something in from the outside would be considerably more difficult. To get it into her cell, with the note attached, without it being noticed and removed, would've demanded some heavy duty coordination and consideration and indicates all the more it was genuine at its heart.
And that's why, like I said to 90scartoonman, while it might have been a sick joke in his mind, it ends up backfiring on him: in that he went to all this effort to smuggle the rose into her cell. Kinda makes you love Harley even more, doesn't it?
It's interesting that there's symmetry between the first rose and the second. I never saw it as a test before, but that makes a lot of sense.
I completely agree that the Joker is so remorseless, he can just dismiss the whole thing and move past it. His gestures are genuine, but you can never really predict what he's going to feel and when.
After hearing everyone's thoughts on Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader part deux, it really reiterates the sense to me that these characters are complex and they are archetypes.
The Joker has been around for 70 years. Why is he not dead yet after all of the things that he has done? Because somewhere deep down inside, Batman knows there is humanity and as I've learned from the fabulous zhinxy (http://community.livejournal.com/noscans_daily/71487.html?thread=2595391#t2595391) Batman never gives up. There is an archetype there, and that's why this love/hate story between Harley and the Joker is so familiar. We've heard it before.
And Batman will continue to believe that even in the Joker there is hope. The ending of Mad Love shows us if this is not entirely a manipulative gesture, but a genuine one, that very essence that Batman and Harley believe in: the humanity.
I truly believe that Harley makes him a much more interesting character. And honestly -- he's complex. The arch-nemesis relationship he has with Batman is complex. So why would a relationship with Harley be any less than complex? /ramble
Joker's presenting of a single rose to Harley in Mad Love plays a key role to the dynamics of the relationship.
The first time he does this is when she is still a doctor at Arkham and the second time is when she returns to Arkham as a prisoner, badly injured after he pushes her out of a window.
In both instances, the gift is an act of manipulation. However, it's a complex manipulation with several different elements at play.
Joker took a gamble by giving her the rose in the first instance. She very well could've gone to the guards. In this way, the rose was a test. A test that she passed, for she didn't go the guards - she went straight to him. Perhaps indicating that something he maybe suspected of her from the very beginning was true.
But the rose was also his way of expressing interest in her. An interest that was first indicated when he winked at her and then confirmed when he revealed that he'd been listening to the information being passed around about her and the peculiarity of her name had struck him.
And naturally, of course, the rose was a way to intrigue her - it's a traditionally romantic gesture designed to set hearts fluttering. Although Harley was definitely out for her own interests and doubtless pegged Joker's attraction to her as a ticket to the big leagues, being as young and naive as she was it's difficult to imagine she wasn't also flattered and thrilled that someone like Joker was paying attention to her in such a way.
But finally, the rose was an invitation - he already knew who she was. We see it - the way she meets Ivy's eyes - the way she blushes when Joker winks at her - this girl is ready. Batman himself says it. So the rose was a way of letting her know it would be okay to take that step over the line...
It has been suggested more than once in the DCAU that Joker basically runs Arkham. The very fact he got the rose into her office indicates he was moving around the Asylum and into secure areas at will - it's logical to assume he could also escape as he wanted to. And, in Mad Love, when he does first escape, it is without her help. That Joker selected Harley simply to act as hired help is therefore contested by this evidence.
But even more significant, is the rose he presents to her in the final pages of Mad Love.
Harley is badly damaged - several limbs are broken, her head is bandaged, it's reasonable to assume she has sustained internal injuries - and gearing up to swear Joker off for life when she sees the single rose, placed in a vase by her bed, with a note attached that reads: Feel better soon, J.
It's a truly chilling moment and an incredibly romantic one, albeit in a very twisted fashion. But this is what defines their entire relationship.
To understand it, one has to place it in full context of the story:
Not so long ago, Joker was furious with Harley for going behind his back to try and kill Batman. Fury is probably not even the right word to describe the all-consuming rage he experienced in reaction to that insult - because that's exactly what it was to him: An insult. Humiliation. In his perspective she subjected him to an absolute indignity that he could not endure and he lashed out at her violently in response.
If we are truly going to believe he has no feelings for her and no desire for her in his life, it was the perfect opportunity to eliminate her from his life forever, especially as he injured her so badly, broke her heart so much in the wake of his lies being revealed, that she was ready to walk away.
Instead he makes this gesture of romance again.
Reply
It's important to note that in doing this, it is clear he is no longer angry. Naturally, throwing her out a window is not a justifiable action, but in his mind it is. In his mind it was an entirely proportional response to the perceived slight she dealt him. Yes, that's sick but that's also the Joker.
Yet in sending that rose, he reveals he's willing to move on from it.
Is he sorry?
No, of course not. Sorry is not something he is capable of feeling. Remorse is not an emotion he knows or can understand.
But that does not preclude him being happy that she has survived, or even concern. The rose is a genuine gesture - the words are meant. He wants her to feel better, and soon. Even the simple, directive way the words are stated, devoid of an "I hope you" so typical to such sentiments of well-wishing, affirms this desire. There's no apology, no entreaty of "please get better soon" - it's to the point, almost an order. He wants her well and whole again.
In his mind, in his insane, hopelessly psychotic mind, neither his throwing her out a window or her insulting him in such a way have any bearing on the future. They can start again, as if none of it ever happened. There is absolute detachment from action and consequence.
In this way, the rose is a manipulative gesture, but not intentionally so - which really makes it all the more manipulative. It came from a genuine space from a very sick individual. To quote zhinxy: The most manipulative thing about it, in my mind, is how it comes from a place and worldview so chilling and insane, that it's not intentional manipulation, but a genuine act of well-wishing from such a twisted and horrible mind.
Finally, consider the colossal effort of even getting the rose into Arkham - with a hand-written note. Whilst playing the system from within might be easy for the Joker, getting something in from the outside would be considerably more difficult. To get it into her cell, with the note attached, without it being noticed and removed, would've demanded some heavy duty coordination and consideration and indicates all the more it was genuine at its heart.
To close, with one final quote from zhinxy which pretty much says it all:
This is all so much more interesting and text-supported and even more twisted and tragic and wrong than "he's a calculating manipulative abuser at all times" isn't it? Why so many people insist so loudly I'm reading a much more boring story, I will never, ever know.
Reply
And that's why, like I said to 90scartoonman, while it might have been a sick joke in his mind, it ends up backfiring on him: in that he went to all this effort to smuggle the rose into her cell. Kinda makes you love Harley even more, doesn't it?
Reply
I completely agree that the Joker is so remorseless, he can just dismiss the whole thing and move past it. His gestures are genuine, but you can never really predict what he's going to feel and when.
Reply
After hearing everyone's thoughts on Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader part deux, it really reiterates the sense to me that these characters are complex and they are archetypes.
The Joker has been around for 70 years. Why is he not dead yet after all of the things that he has done? Because somewhere deep down inside, Batman knows there is humanity and as I've learned from the fabulous zhinxy (http://community.livejournal.com/noscans_daily/71487.html?thread=2595391#t2595391) Batman never gives up. There is an archetype there, and that's why this love/hate story between Harley and the Joker is so familiar. We've heard it before.
And Batman will continue to believe that even in the Joker there is hope.
The ending of Mad Love shows us if this is not entirely a manipulative gesture, but a genuine one, that very essence that Batman and Harley believe in: the humanity.
I truly believe that Harley makes him a much more interesting character. And honestly -- he's complex. The arch-nemesis relationship he has with Batman is complex. So why would a relationship with Harley be any less than complex?
/ramble
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