Comments | nonfluffypagans: The Dance of Culture and Spirit

madfedor in nonfluffypagans

The Dance of Culture and Spirit

Mar 26, 2009 10:16

I apologize for the lack of explicitly pagan context in this. It's topical for me, personally: When I dance, it is always spiritual. Others may disagree, and if our moderators decide this is not appropriate here, I already have a copy of it. ;-)

Some disclosure about intent: During chasingtides' recent thread, I had the thought that "cultural" is a ( Read more... )

cultural "borrowing", ethics, more than 75 comments

Comments 90

ulfrslady March 26 2009, 16:09:41 UTC

Culture does not exist in a vacuum. We can look at every distinct culture on the planet and see how it is influenced by it's neighbors, it's neighbors neighbors and in many cases a variety of empire-builders who ran across the native ground.

madfedor March 26 2009, 17:08:30 UTC

Well put. The chicken-egg dilemma happens frequently, because of that very process by which a conquering culture subsumes, oppresses, absorbs or erases those which it conquered.

"Is like" does not necessary mean "is from". That debate happens a lot on the email list I mentioned. It makes for very interesting reading and debates.

ulfrslady March 26 2009, 17:27:31 UTC

I think that's another point that doesn't get addressed well in discussions of (possible) appropriation - independent invention. It is entirely possible for 2 cultures with no contact whatsoever to have similar practices, just because they make sense.

kazoogrrl March 26 2009, 16:40:01 UTC

I think one issue that may come up is not that westerners/dominant cultures can't or don't appreciate and participate in the culture of others. It's that the dominant culture decides it can control or change the culture of others, and that desire can come from the sense of appreciation and is not malicious. It's like a big ungainly wet puppy who enthusiastically tromps all over your picnic blanket ( ... )

About belly dance... madfedor March 26 2009, 17:02:19 UTC

I have an equal or greater level of familiarity with BD than I do with many of the ethnicities I listed in the OP, but I also know that there are others in this comm who know it from the inside, at a level I'll never acquire.

When I teach IFD (which I've done for 30+ years), I make it my responsibility within time constraints to teach the cultural context of the dances. It may be commentary on movements (the women did this to better display their proudly handcrafted skirts) or a synopsis of the story told by the song lyrics (the words say he touched only her hand, but we all know it was more than that). ;-D

Re: About belly dance... kazoogrrl March 26 2009, 17:34:42 UTC

Definitely! I dance totally American fusion BD, but I think it is my responsibility to have at least a passing familiarity with the different styles of belly dance/ME dance, if not to dance them then at least to say "Oh, that's a blah from blah, it's a folk dance. Oh, that's an x rhythm, I think you use it with y." And also, know to know history, or at least the fact that we have no idea the history of the dance pre-twentieth century.

Confused moon_ferret March 28 2009, 04:48:24 UTC

The way this whole thing comes across TO ME (not anyone else, I speak for me ( ... )

Thread 12

misslynx March 26 2009, 16:42:26 UTC

Definitely some interesting questions there. I'm not sure what I have to add - I failed the folk dancing unit in grade 9 phys ed, which was pretty much my last encounter with it. :-)

But I'm definitely drawn to music from all kinds of different cultures, and while I don't dance professionally in any capacity, I do enjoy dancing just recreationally, and find that some of the music I most enjoy dancing to does in fact come from cultures I have no direct personal connection to. For example, I loved FunkAsia while it was happening regularly, enough that I did their web site for free in return for a permanent spot on the guest list, and I have no South Asian ancestry that I know of, nor have ever even been to that part of the world. So I can relate to some extent.

I do think that the point ulfrslady made is valid, that cultures have always had permeable boundaries, and tended to influence and be influenced by others they come in contact with. So to some extent, what we now call cultural appropriation has always been with us and is probably ( ... )

ulfrslady March 26 2009, 17:46:03 UTC

I don't think we can draw a hard line. I think we have to look at everything on a case-by-case basis and remember that usually the perpetrator does not know they're doing something wrong so be gentle in your explanation.

uncledark March 26 2009, 22:40:17 UTC

I don't think "spiritual appropriation" would be less problematic. Just more vague, and less useful, and diverting attention away from the things that are problematic about cultural appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is used because the term speaks directly to the problem: the misrepresentation and disrespect for less-powerful cultures by persons belonging to more powerful cultures. To swap out "cultural" and replace it with "spiritual" removes the link to this problem, effectively hiding the fact that it does do something bad to a smaller, less privilaged community when appropriation strips their identifying symbols of context and meaning.

witchsistah March 26 2009, 23:33:16 UTC

I don't think "spiritual appropriation" would be less problematic.

Me neither and neither do many Native American tribes.

supermouse March 27 2009, 00:19:53 UTC

I grit my teeth every time someone from a WASP background blithely says how they worship Coyote or Raven because they're trickster gods and are spiritually meaningful to the cheerfully chirping appropriator, or, worse, how they worship Coyote *and* Raven *and* Loki. It's not any less problematic, it's worse. In my humble but deeply religious opinion.

ai731 March 27 2009, 01:07:53 UTC

Fancy seeing you here!

Thread 72

Who's protecting whom? madfedor March 28 2009, 14:15:40 UTC

A recurring theme in the contributions so far is this sense that the icons and symbols of spirit need to be preserved and protected.

To set my personal stake in that up front: Before I began on this path, I was a hard atheist, and over time and experience I find that the term best suited to describing my beliefs in deity is panentheism. I retain a strong "anti-anthropomorphism", in that I personally reject the notion that deity has an innately human form, but rather obtains that form imposed on it by humans. I'll just add that, from my POV, human "imposition" defines faith, and while it can be a detriment, it is not inherently detrimental. How we connect to spirit comes before the connection being made. I absolutely am not criticizing the value of method, just stating my personal method and that it is outside the narrow mainstream of paganism ( ... )