The Dance of Culture and Spirit

[madfedor]

I apologize for the lack of explicitly pagan context in this. It's topical for me, personally: When I dance, it is always spiritual. Others may disagree, and if our moderators decide this is not appropriate here, I already have a copy of it. ;-)

Some disclosure about intent: During chasingtides' recent thread, I had the thought that "cultural" is a

Comments

[uncledark]

I don't think "spiritual appropriation" would be less problematic. Just more vague, and less useful, and diverting attention away from the things that are problematic about cultural appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is used because the term speaks directly to the problem: the misrepresentation and disrespect for less-powerful cultures by persons belonging to more powerful cultures. To swap out "cultural" and replace it with "spiritual" removes the link to this problem, effectively hiding the fact that it does do something bad to a smaller, less privilaged community when appropriation strips their identifying symbols of context and meaning.

[witchsistah]

I don't think "spiritual appropriation" would be less problematic.

Me neither and neither do many Native American tribes.

[supermouse]

I grit my teeth every time someone from a WASP background blithely says how they worship Coyote or Raven because they're trickster gods and are spiritually meaningful to the cheerfully chirping appropriator, or, worse, how they worship Coyote *and* Raven *and* Loki. It's not any less problematic, it's worse. In my humble but deeply religious opinion.

[ai731]

Fancy seeing you here!

[supermouse]

Hello! I see we share afpers in common. Friend?

[ai731]

We've met In Real Life a few times too, years back - you probably don't remember me, but I was manning ppint's book table at Clarecraft in 2000-ish
and you needed a place to sit down for a while :) I've since moved back to Canada.

Friend

Yes please :) You'll find a link to my current blog on my LJ - I now just use LJ to read & comment.

[saavik]

You may grit your teeth all you like, but apart from considerations of common sense, good manners, and respect for other people, it is up to Coyote or Raven or Loki or any other Deity as to whose worship they will accept or reject or even solicit. It does not matter how old anyone's culture is, the Gods are older still, and no one owns them. Very much the other way around I should think. I wish people in general would quit trying to tell their gods how to behave.

I apologize if I have given offense by this observation, but it seems self evident to me that ownership can not be imposed by human onto Deity like a copyright or a trademark.

[supermouse]

I don't see how to properly honour a Deity outside the context of that Deity's background. I don't see how it's possible to make a home for the Deity to visit without knowing what they like, how they're comfortable and what their history is. You're also opening yourself up to a world of danger. For example, Loki, who I *do* know about, how is it possible to understand him without knowing his ultimate purpose? What's more, there's a danger there - someone who doesn't follow Asatru and has welcomed him all unknowing, is probably not going to know to burn their nail clippings so he can't finish his boat and help bring forward Ragnarok. Or they might trust his every word implicitly, assuming only good intent, rather than that Loki might be bored and want to string you along for a prank. With only Loki's attention and without Odin to step in and curb his worst excesses, a follower is *screwed*. Deities are not kind, benevolent servants who turn up to give a spiritual pat on the shoulder when times are hard. They have their own agenda. It'

[saavik]

Please re-read my previous post and you will notice that I did not absolve anyone of the responsibility to learn and understand WTF they are doing. IMO and IME, this is not limited by one's genetics, regardless of those who would claim otherwise. Anyone who would blindly and ignorantly open themselves up to anything deserves exactly what they would get. Mostly.

However, it is up to the Deity and the person in question to resolve any relationship. It is not up to some 3rd party, no mater how entitled they see themselves, to interfere like some 3 year old snatching a favourite toy from another, bawling, "Mine!"

[uncledark]

How are we to know if a person is actually in communication with a particular deity, if that person is ignorant of that deity's cultural history, common means of worship, and so on? If a person shows no respect for the culture of origin for that deity, and is dismissive of the social and historical context that gives that deity's symbols meaning, how do we know that they aren't talking to another entity entirely, or to themselves, or just scamming us?

Context matters, for all kinds of reasons.

For example, borrowing an image or a concept from another culture means one thing when the cultures are more or less equal. It means something different when one culture is dominant, privileged, and powerful and the other is less so.

It is not up to some 3rd party, no mater how entitled they see themselves, to interfere like some 3 year old snatching a favourite toy from another, bawling, "Mine!"
Is this really how you see protests against cultural appropriation? Wow.

[saavik]

Yes, it is pretty much how I see it. Human cultures are and have always been borrowing from and influencing each other everywhere. This is a fact of life, and we'd all best get used to it and move on. Because even if *we* won't, the rest of society will.

I am in no way advocating accepting ignorance or disrespect; quite the opposite. Once we become conscious of this 'appropriation' as a fact of life, it is the duty of reasonable people to learn and examine such new insights with respect and consideration.

But no amount of denial or active antagonism is going to turn back the clock and recork the genii. One can not unlearn a thing that has passed through one's awareness. One can only do one's best to understand it.

[oxystat]

Thank you, Saavik.

You pretty much summed up the direction in which I was going, rather more concisely and eloquently. Good posts.

[estaratshirai]

It is hard to know if a third party is in touch with a particular Deity unless we have a relationship with that Deity ourselves. Fortunately, that's not important because it's really none of our business. It is not hard to know if a third party is behaving like a jerk to others in the community, and that's the thing to call people out on.

[uncledark]

It is much easier to know if someone's being a jerk, yes, and such people should be called on it. Not only when they're being a jerk to others in the community, though. Because, fair or not, all of us in this movement are judged a little more kindly or a little more harshly based on the actions of the most obvioius few. Thus, for the sake of reducing the amount of crap we and our friends have to slog through, we should also call people on it when they're being jerks to people in other communities, as well.

And, I dispute the assertion that it is not our buisiness if others are in contact with the dieties they say they are, at least in some cases. If someone is making claims about Dionysos, it becomes my business (or at least my interest), as I also worship Dionysos. It becomes useful for me to know if they're true, sincere but incorrect, or lying. How else am I to know if something they claim Dionysos told them is something I should pay attention to in my own worship?

[saavik]

It would serve you better in your own worship to pay attention to what Dionysos tells you .

It is none of your business what Dionysos chooses to say to someone else, given the fact that it would be privileged communication from a God, ya' know? What do you propose to do about it anyway, burn the heretic at the stake for daring to communicate in unsanctioned ways with your {"Mine!") God?

Sorry, but I find such an attitude as yours to be parochial, petty, and absurd.

[uncledark]

Parochial, petty, and absurd? All at once? You seem to have a higher regard for my asshatery skills than I do