Comments | nonfluffypagans: Paganism Rant

moon_ferret in nonfluffypagans

Paganism Rant

Oct 25, 2003 13:45

One the message boards I am on is populated by some wild and woolly Pagans. There are a couple in particular that are quite a bit older than me and have been around the Pagan community for thirty plus years. One has the screen name of Daimon and is one of the ones that I always know I want to read his posts. This one was one of my favorites and ( Read more... )

pagan, definition

Comments 43

heresiarch October 26 2003, 03:52:17 UTC

Well good for him. There's a large overlap between people who identify as neo-pagan, and people involved in other subcultures. I think a bigger problem is people who call themselves Pagan but don't practice paganism in any form or even know very much about it. Personally, I'm Pagan for some of the same reasons I'm alternative in other ways -- I have very different values from the mainstream, from gender identity to sexuality and relationships, from cultural and stylistic expression to religion. I don't expect all Pagans to be poly any more than I expect all goths to be Satanists or Wiccans. But I do hope Neo-pagans will be generally more open-minded, as they are a religious minority and by becoming Pagan, embrace values that are often contrary to the mainstream.

misslynx October 26 2003, 07:41:08 UTC

Personally, I'm Pagan for some of the same reasons I'm alternative in other ways -- I have very different values from the mainstream, from gender identity to sexuality and relationships, from cultural and stylistic expression to religion.

That's a very good point, and a statement that I can identify strongly with as well. No, I don't think being pagan necessitates being part of any other sort of subculture, but it can mesh very well with some of them. Statement like that long list of "______ is not paganism", while technically true in that none of these things are a requirement for being pagan, can also come across as judgemental and imply that either you can't be pagan and any of these things, or at least that you have to experience those different parts of your life as completely unrelated.

That's not the case for me any more than it sounds like it is for you -- for me, the various ways in which I fall outside the mainstream do relate to or at least parallel each other... I can't carve my life up into separate little boxes like ( ... )

heresiarch October 26 2003, 19:37:38 UTC

I completely agree -- I think you articulated a lot of what I was trying to say :). This kind of attitude does bother me a little. Maybe I just haven't been exposed to a lot people who try to use Paganism to justify polyamory or kink or other kinds of alternative lifestyles -- but really, why would anyone need to justify those choices? I definitely don't think you have to be alternative or countercultural to be Pagan, but you can't escape the fact that it's a minority religion and viewed socially as an alternative religious affiliation. Furthermore, I do think Paganism requires questioning some basic social norms and assumptions, such as patriarchical religion and monotheism. Too many people today "convert" to Paganism without really examining their underlying assumptions about religion which they bring with them, usually from Christianity.

moon_ferret October 29 2003, 21:20:27 UTC

Maybe I just haven't been exposed to a lot people who try to use Paganism to justify polyamory or kink or other kinds of alternative lifestyles -- but really, why would anyone need to justify those choices?

Very good question and one that I have asked. I don't think that you have to justify your lifestyle any more than I should have too. Believe me, I am living a doozy right now. The fact that my mother hasn't had a heart attack yet...

I think what I get out of it is that while these things are personal and "acceptable" (and I am using that term in quotes to try and say it is none of my damned business who anyone sleeps with) I am not sure why people feel the need to link them with Paganism. Or to explain their choices with the answer "Because I am an Pagan". I avoided the local Pagan community like the plague for years because of issues like these. I prefer to think that these are personal choices and personalities rather than Religious Callings. Once again I am not sure if that makes sense to anyone other than me.

( ... )

ravenwolf1 October 26 2003, 03:54:09 UTC

Well said!
May I post this on my journal?

moon_ferret October 29 2003, 21:21:29 UTC

Damion said as long as he is credited as the author, it may be posted.

ravenwolf1 October 30 2003, 16:12:36 UTC

thanks! I will credit with his name :)

How much do I agree... Let me count the ways. kestrel127 October 26 2003, 05:00:16 UTC

When I was in (Catholic) high school and just getting into Wicca, I went to school for Halloween as goth. Black everything, cape, fake nose ring, black eyeshadow and lipstick, lots of jewelry, about five necklaces, including a pentacle I'd bought over the summer ( ... )

misspotsitt October 26 2003, 12:24:02 UTC

That's really cool, I agree with all of it actually.

Thanks for posting it here rather than linking to the site. The ways things are going I may well have been redirected to a site that sells cleaning products.

my view: nouse4anick_00 October 26 2003, 19:40:15 UTC

while nudity, sex, and drinking are not pagan, they, in most cases, are a part of paganism.

As far as alternitive lifestyles, they are not pagan, but can be a part of paganism. Ex: one might 'partner up' with someone and not actually marry, and consider themselves pagan because they worship gods, do rituals, etc, but not because they shack up together.

paganism has diffrent ideals than other religions, to say that nudity, or other 'alternitive lifestyles' make you pagan is wrong, but many of them are a PART of paganism.

i guess what im trying to say is that many things can be a part of paganism, but no 'alternative lifestyle' can actually make you pagan.

just my opinion.

Note: by 'alternative lifestyle', i mean those which daimon listed off.

Re: my view: moon_ferret October 29 2003, 21:24:37 UTC

while nudity, sex, and drinking are not pagan, they, in most cases, are a part of paganism.

How so, in your opinion? I have never been called by my Patron to get nekkid, drink or have sex with someone. My worship of the Devine has never led me to any of those things. I am curious how you see them linked. And before anyone bashes me for not doing those things, you should hear the stories from PSG.

Re: my view: nouse4anick_00 October 30 2003, 02:15:16 UTC

does tantric sex ring a bell? what about drinking mead on beltaine? and what about those who prefer to perform ritual sky-clad? while your worship has never led you to any of those things, to say that no one does them for the sake of ritual is wrong ( ... )