I'm not sure if it's fair for Lee to have to be the one who patiently waits for Kara, but I also think Lee being the patient one comes as a believable extension of his personality. Lee not giving up the search for Kara when she's on the red moon points to something similar to patience. As does, I think, his ability to carry a grudge and even the fact that he keep coming back to Kara. He has a determination that is easily made into patience.
No, we wouldn't expect Kara to wait for Lee the same way. Dee waits patiently for Lee to figure things out in S3 and is often not seen well for it. I also think it's harder to believe that Kara would wait. She teases and runs and puts people between them which doesn't make a viewer or writer think "Wow, patience!"
Ah, so you are saying that Lee has the personality underpinnings to already be determined and patient? I mean, I think it makes sense to show Lee as the patient one who is more stable and better able to wait. My stumbling blocks, however are TRUST and FORGIVENESS. Lee seems terrible at both of these. Thoughts?
Yeah, Lee has a hard time with both trust and forgiveness. But I'm not sure he can do much more than sit back and be willing while trust is rebuilt and forgiveness is earned. Especially in the case of Kara and Lee, Kara is the one with the more active roll in both of these. Since Kara is the character more inclined towards action, it works for Lee to wait her out.
Now, part of the difficulty for Kara and Lee in terms of trust and forgiveness is Kara's feelings of inadequacy. Kara lets Lee beat her up in UB because it's the only way she feels comfortable earning his forgiveness.
I have to think some more about trust. Hopefully, I will get back to you later... :)
I think this is an absolutely fascinating topic. I've always thought that as shown on the show Kara and Lee wouldn't ever be able to have a healthy romantic relationship. Both were seriously abused as children and the ways they coped were fairly opposite which sort of puts them at odds as adults. Kara was further seriously traumatized both by her abuse on Caprica and New Caprica. I'm not sure either of them could ever have a healthy relationship, much less with each other
( ... )
It sounds like you are saying that you WANT Lee to change more because he has some serious flaws and has a history of treating women badly. I can see that. I think you are also saying that Lee has no insight into his flaws and that he is self-centered. I can see that, as well. And yes, canon does present their relationship as very flawed and making a relationship work early in the show would have been nearly impossible.
I guess I wonder why you'd expect Kara to be able to change but not Lee? Is it a matter of insight, as you have said? Further, do you think Lee did change in canon to be more accepting of Kara (Islanded)? If so, how did that happen? (These questions are not challenging your view, but striving to understand. Thanks!)
It's like they say for an addict. The first step is admitting you have a problem.
I think it isn't so much that I expect Kara to be able to change but I can see what might help her to change (Lee turning into fic!Lee). I'm not sure I know what would help Lee to change. Do you? Maybe if Kara was like Dee. I've stated above that I thought Sam was on the right track with giving her space but still being there. Maybe it was the same with Dee, if Lee had just respected her more her tactics might've worked. It's hard to say because I feel like as little as we saw of the Kara/Sam relationship we saw even less of the Lee/Dee.
I'm not sure I know what would help Lee to change. Do you?
I come from the camp that Lee did change in canon. His experiences in leaving the military, failing at marriage, and finally losing Kara all combined to show Lee that the choices he was making weren't working for him. I think we're talking about Lee becoming less self-centered and possibly more accepting of others? IDK. I like to think that in the end, his love and need for Kara surpassed his need to feel safe or comfortable. Although, maybe it was easier than fighting more for her. IDK. Lee's passivity (which many disagree with) drives me crazy and his love an acceptance of Kara could just as well be giving up and accepting that they won't be together. Frak. Just thinking that makes my heart hurt.
Claimed a wallpaper and was asked for Hot Arms. All I can think of is Lee in the mini, but the stupid bars are in the way and Kara's you can't really see.
Re: OT (kinda)workerbee73March 7 2012, 15:16:38 UTC
Oooooooh-- my favorite arms ever I think are right at the beginning of season 2 when his dad's just been shot and he's in the brig. Plus he's all bloodied up for good measure. *g*
Re: OT (kinda)scifishipperMarch 7 2012, 15:27:28 UTC
Black Market (gym scene with Dee), KLG1 (boxing scene with Adama), Final Cut, YCGHA when he's under the viper (before the call with roslin), and UB boxing.
What a fantastic topic! I don't know if we've ever discussed this through the writing/fandom lens. I can't give a full answer right at the moment, but I'm sitting here wondering how AU versus canon stories might change the analysis. I find myself constantly pulling pilots out of canon context because I find them easier to "work on" outside of canon and now I'm left thinking about why I do this. I'll be back later with more thoughts but I just wanted to say AWESOME TOPIC!
YAY! I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I'd love to talk about the distinctions between AU and canon fic as they relate to the question (which I THINK is another point you are making?) :D
Take this with a grain of salt because I've written exacty two fics that deal with K/L in a meaty, non-drabbly way, but I think they both have to change. I don't think it's fair to make Lee wait, but considering where in canon you come at it from, he has his own share of problems. That's why I really like post-canon or AU here - post-canon especially because it's so hard for me to picture them getting their act together at most points in the show.
I think you're on to something here. And they definitely both have issues out the wazoo (which often exacerbate the other). This too is why I tend to leave canon alone and come at K/L stories from outside that context-- not ignoring canon, but not trying to change it either.
Comments 84
No, we wouldn't expect Kara to wait for Lee the same way. Dee waits patiently for Lee to figure things out in S3 and is often not seen well for it. I also think it's harder to believe that Kara would wait. She teases and runs and puts people between them which doesn't make a viewer or writer think "Wow, patience!"
Reply
Reply
Now, part of the difficulty for Kara and Lee in terms of trust and forgiveness is Kara's feelings of inadequacy. Kara lets Lee beat her up in UB because it's the only way she feels comfortable earning his forgiveness.
I have to think some more about trust. Hopefully, I will get back to you later... :)
Reply
Reply
I guess I wonder why you'd expect Kara to be able to change but not Lee? Is it a matter of insight, as you have said? Further, do you think Lee did change in canon to be more accepting of Kara (Islanded)? If so, how did that happen? (These questions are not challenging your view, but striving to understand. Thanks!)
Reply
I think it isn't so much that I expect Kara to be able to change but I can see what might help her to change (Lee turning into fic!Lee). I'm not sure I know what would help Lee to change. Do you? Maybe if Kara was like Dee. I've stated above that I thought Sam was on the right track with giving her space but still being there. Maybe it was the same with Dee, if Lee had just respected her more her tactics might've worked. It's hard to say because I feel like as little as we saw of the Kara/Sam relationship we saw even less of the Lee/Dee.
Reply
I come from the camp that Lee did change in canon. His experiences in leaving the military, failing at marriage, and finally losing Kara all combined to show Lee that the choices he was making weren't working for him. I think we're talking about Lee becoming less self-centered and possibly more accepting of others? IDK. I like to think that in the end, his love and need for Kara surpassed his need to feel safe or comfortable. Although, maybe it was easier than fighting more for her. IDK. Lee's passivity (which many disagree with) drives me crazy and his love an acceptance of Kara could just as well be giving up and accepting that they won't be together. Frak. Just thinking that makes my heart hurt.
Thanks for the reply!
Reply
Claimed a wallpaper and was asked for Hot Arms. All I can think of is Lee in the mini, but the stupid bars are in the way and Kara's you can't really see.
What other episodes should I be looking at?
Reply
So "Scattered" I think?
Reply
YAY!
Reply
Reply
:D
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Reply
Leave a comment