Re: Jews, not RussiansahousekeeperDecember 3 2007, 16:21:56 UTC
What about Russians from Russia? Are they Russian-Russians? :)
The source of the disagreement is that you are trying to think in American categories. Outside of the American-dominated world the word "nation" can mean not only a state but also ethnicity. Russians are ethnicity, not citizenship. When you say, for example "Italian mafia" of "Irish gang" does that mean its members are citizens of Italia or Ireland? :)
More deeply the controversy comes from the never ending debate between constructivism and primordialism. My nation is 2500 years old, though for centuries we didn't have a national state, that's why for me 'ethnicity' and 'nation' are synonyms. Yet Americans are a nation that came to existence thanks to their state. So for them 'nation' and 'state' are synonyms.
Re: Jews, not RussiansirishkateDecember 3 2007, 17:39:26 UTC
The source of disagreement is that you are trying to pigeon hole people. You can be Jewish and Russian, you could be Jewish and Russian and Catholic if that's who you are. Being one does not make you more or less another.
Re: Jews, not RussianstashabearDecember 3 2007, 23:45:01 UTC
To pigeon hole someone is to put them in neatly defined categories, like little boxes. It comes from the design of pigeon coops, which apparently have small boxes for the pigeons to nest in.
Re: Jews, not Russiansmartin_sladeDecember 3 2007, 18:01:52 UTC
Constructivism and primordialism aren't necessarily irreconcilable (in this matter, at least), because a person can belong to multiple nations, and multiple states for that matter
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Re: Jews, not Russiansmartin_sladeDecember 3 2007, 19:15:33 UTC
I did actually mean that she thought of herself as culturally British. Again - you seem to ignore assimilation.
If we can't define our own ethnicity, what are the criteria? The main criterion for me, is a sense of belonging. If she feels she belongs to the British (or rather, English, as Britain consists of several nations as well) nation, then I think she does.
I define myself as Norwegian. Am I Prussian in your view, even though I don't know much about Prussian culture, nor speak a word of German?
Oh, aren't you edgy!kali921December 3 2007, 19:42:41 UTC
Oh, aren't you edgy, going out of your way to set the rest of us straight on who is Jew and who is a Russian and who isn't, according to the laws of ahousekeeper. Aren't you cutting edge with your clarifier that OMG SUP's leadership are JEWS JEWS JEWS OMG THE JEWS! Not Russians, but JEWS!
We're in your blogging service, making you watch Woody Allen films, fomenting a vigorous intellectual tradition, and telling you to shut the hell up with your implied racism.
Russia, in its various modern incarnations, has been a multi-ethnic state for, oh, at least decades. Jews have been living in what now constitutes the modern state of Russia for centuries. I'm pretty sure that your definition isn't the only prevailing one in how a citizen of the Russian Federation self-idenfiies.
It's NOT MY blogging service, it ISN'T YOURS eitherahousekeeperDecember 3 2007, 19:52:40 UTC
The Russians use the word "Rossiyanin" (россиянин) for the citizenship and the word "Russkij" (русский) for the ethnicity.
I love Woody Allen's films, so what? As well as movies by Besson or Tarantino. Looks like the ideology of political correctness had brainwashed you to another extreme, to a realm where just mentioning the ethnicity triggers the flow of stupid accusations of racism and antisemitism.
Ah, ignorance.kali921December 3 2007, 20:12:36 UTC
No, it's because you're apparently 1) astonishingly ignorant about Jews and what defines a Jew, based on your above comments that Jews are either defined by their "ethnicity" or "religion," showing that you have absolutely no grasp of the fact that Jews can and are self-defined and defined by others as both, and 2) the fact that you are astonishingly ignorant of how racist you are presenting and apparently also staggeringly ignorant of how charged certain signifiers are when used in discussions about race and ethnicity.
When you go out of your way to point out the fact that someone is not, in fact, Russian but that they are Jewish, to a great number of people that will raise the following question: why are you pointing this out in the first place? The implication is that this is somehow negative - is that what you meant
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Re: Ah, ignorance.ahousekeeperDecember 3 2007, 20:24:29 UTC
> Particularly when you are making these statements > in a conversation that, I'm betting, is largely > dominated by Western Europeans and Americans.
Well, yes, I accept that was a mistake. A European guy from a conversation above had no problems understanding what I meant (while still having another opinion) and had valid arguments to support his opinion (still that didn't change my opinion too).
But with Americans, I guess, that doesn't work. If an opinion doesn't fit into a narrow circle of what is allowed by the perverted version of "political correctness", then the name calling game starts.
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The source of the disagreement is that you are trying to think in American categories. Outside of the American-dominated world the word "nation" can mean not only a state but also ethnicity. Russians are ethnicity, not citizenship. When you say, for example "Italian mafia" of "Irish gang" does that mean its members are citizens of Italia or Ireland? :)
More deeply the controversy comes from the never ending debate between constructivism and primordialism. My nation is 2500 years old, though for centuries we didn't have a national state, that's why for me 'ethnicity' and 'nation' are synonyms. Yet Americans are a nation that came to existence thanks to their state. So for them 'nation' and 'state' are synonyms.
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huh?
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If we can't define our own ethnicity, what are the criteria? The main criterion for me, is a sense of belonging. If she feels she belongs to the British (or rather, English, as Britain consists of several nations as well) nation, then I think she does.
I define myself as Norwegian. Am I Prussian in your view, even though I don't know much about Prussian culture, nor speak a word of German?
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We're in your blogging service, making you watch Woody Allen films, fomenting a vigorous intellectual tradition, and telling you to shut the hell up with your implied racism.
Russia, in its various modern incarnations, has been a multi-ethnic state for, oh, at least decades. Jews have been living in what now constitutes the modern state of Russia for centuries. I'm pretty sure that your definition isn't the only prevailing one in how a citizen of the Russian Federation self-idenfiies.
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I love Woody Allen's films, so what? As well as movies by Besson or Tarantino. Looks like the ideology of political correctness had brainwashed you to another extreme, to a realm where just mentioning the ethnicity triggers the flow of stupid accusations of racism and antisemitism.
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When you go out of your way to point out the fact that someone is not, in fact, Russian but that they are Jewish, to a great number of people that will raise the following question: why are you pointing this out in the first place? The implication is that this is somehow negative - is that what you meant ( ... )
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> in a conversation that, I'm betting, is largely
> dominated by Western Europeans and Americans.
Well, yes, I accept that was a mistake. A European guy from a conversation above had no problems understanding what I meant (while still having another opinion) and had valid arguments to support his opinion (still that didn't change my opinion too).
But with Americans, I guess, that doesn't work. If an opinion doesn't fit into a narrow circle of what is allowed by the perverted version of "political correctness", then the name calling game starts.
Now, you can bomb me :)
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Why did you point out that he's Jewish?
Is that clear enough for you?
You seem to be using "political correctness" to deflect any straightforward questions as to whether or not you're a racist twit.
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