Oh, I thought it was effective, but again, the urgency of the situation was not really brought home, much as with Madison.
he does see how ruthless Sam is becoming. How merciless and oftentimes cruel. And that jars me the most, because now that we have an established Hell which one goes to if one's soul is tainted, Sam still makes those choices in order to save him. It's the one-track-mindedness that's so Winchester, sacrificing yourself to save your family, but in a very decisive way from which there is no coming back
*nod nod*
Though I think Dean is still at the point where he thinks Sam hasn't damned himself, and I think if Dean sees him get to that point (and can admit it to himself), he'll have something to say about it, something along the lines of he's going to hell but Sam doesn't have to, etc. And it will be gloriously painful.
Now that we're passed that point, he's still swimming in all of the "I might be going to hell, but at least he's safe" juice, and he's not noticing how radically things are changing, and how fast they're arriving at the point of no return.
*nod nod*
I've been hearing people being completely taken aback by the recent surge of misogyny in the show, and now with Gordon's death, racism. Do you notice this?
The show has ALWAYS had skanky race and gender issues; I know some people feel they're even more blatant this season, but I think it's mostly been par for the course, though last night's series of disposable blondes was actually pretty blatant, and I don't think it was meant as a metacommentary on the show's propensity for killing off women.
Heh, you know the thing that amuses me about both our reviews of SPN? That we basically have exactly the same thoughts on so many issues and then... We just suddenly fall onto not just another page of the book, but an entirely different book altogether.
I absolutely saw the callback to Croatoan in the ep as well, first with the girl and the virus where both Sam&Dean agree that they have to kill Harmony - but then for me to when Sam says that they need to kill Gordon as well, whereas in Croatoan he pushed Dean not to kill a human they didn't know was a danger. And while the difference is that Gordon is clearly a killer and a danger - he's still human. So to me the look Dean gave Sam after he said that Gordon needed to be killed suggested that was another one of those moments where Dean realized Sam was different, wondered if it was that he came back different and was troubled. Whereas you read him to feel that this was something Sam needed to learn how to be - tough enough to kill to survive. That's just so amusing to me that we
( ... )
So to me the look Dean gave Sam after he said that Gordon needed to be killed suggested that was another one of those moments where Dean realized Sam was different, wondered if it was that he came back different and was troubled. Whereas you read him to feel that this was something Sam needed to learn how to be - tough enough to kill to survive.Well, I think that's also there, underneath, but I think Dean is telling himself that Sam has to be able to do this, so that it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong. He wants to attribute it to Sam toughening up, as it were, in order to survive, rather than Sam becoming hardened or less empathetic because of coming back wrong
( ... )
Sam came back the same Sam he's always been, but because of Dean's actions, he's changing/hardening in order to save Dean
That's very interesting! By which I mean, I like that idea more than the one I've been assuming which is that he really did come back different somehow. Just the way he took down Jake seemed so cold, yet that would be explainable as, well, Jake did kill him after all I suppose. Hmmm... I like the idea that Dean's deal - the reason he's alive - is ultimately the reason he "came back wrong" as opposed to him literally having some inner change that is now manifesting itself through his love for Dean as his willingness to do anything to save him.
It certainly fits the idea of Gordon - that because he believed he had no choice, he could become a monster - while we the viewers know he actually did have a choice. Sam may believe that he did come back different, wrong - and that allows him to act in ways he wouldn't have countenanced before. Yet again, it's still his choice, part of who he is, just released by his
( ... )
I like that idea more than the one I've been assuming which is that he really did come back different somehowSee, and I've NEVER thought that. I've thought that Dean thinks it (and really doesn't want to), after watching him shoot Jake and then Casey and the Demon Priest and the CRD, but I think it's simply Sam's choices that are going to lead him down the primrose path, and not anything inherently evil inside him - this is what he's never understood - Ava and Jake had to CHOOSE to flip those switches. Yeah, the YED pushed them to it, but Sam was going to walk out of Cold Oak still himself and still not-evil (except for that pesky leaving the weapons and turning his back thing), and that was his CHOICE
( ... )
Ack, oops missed your spoiler warning! Oh well, that is awesome, though I'll admit I was leaning toward John being the one who gave him the amulet, but it being Sam works too!
And the end scene will be happy place for a very long-ass time. And I do think Sera is capable of the subtle, she just seems to prefer to be anvilicious for some reason. Yet I found myself loving that scene with Dean and Dixon because of the quiet way Jensen played it. Dean's face just oozed with the pain of it all and that added a bit of subtly to it in a way.
Actually unless you specified it was the amulet that the spoiler was about I would have clicked anyway. The think is I didn't know until it was too late I wanted to stay spoilerfreeon the amulet. Oh well, things happen.
the Officeex_dotificuNovember 16 2007, 17:57:36 UTC
I so thought of you cringing last night! Even I was cringing. Man, that was hard to watch for Michael's sake. But funny! Toby! And Kelly was my fave. Esp. that Ladies Room moment, although I've already forgotten her exact words. Was it "Yeah, that's what I thought."?
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he does see how ruthless Sam is becoming. How merciless and oftentimes cruel. And that jars me the most, because now that we have an established Hell which one goes to if one's soul is tainted, Sam still makes those choices in order to save him. It's the one-track-mindedness that's so Winchester, sacrificing yourself to save your family, but in a very decisive way from which there is no coming back
*nod nod*
Though I think Dean is still at the point where he thinks Sam hasn't damned himself, and I think if Dean sees him get to that point (and can admit it to himself), he'll have something to say about it, something along the lines of he's going to hell but Sam doesn't have to, etc. And it will be gloriously painful.
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(The comment has been removed)
*nod nod*
I've been hearing people being completely taken aback by the recent surge of misogyny in the show, and now with Gordon's death, racism. Do you notice this?
The show has ALWAYS had skanky race and gender issues; I know some people feel they're even more blatant this season, but I think it's mostly been par for the course, though last night's series of disposable blondes was actually pretty blatant, and I don't think it was meant as a metacommentary on the show's propensity for killing off women.
Reply
I absolutely saw the callback to Croatoan in the ep as well, first with the girl and the virus where both Sam&Dean agree that they have to kill Harmony - but then for me to when Sam says that they need to kill Gordon as well, whereas in Croatoan he pushed Dean not to kill a human they didn't know was a danger. And while the difference is that Gordon is clearly a killer and a danger - he's still human. So to me the look Dean gave Sam after he said that Gordon needed to be killed suggested that was another one of those moments where Dean realized Sam was different, wondered if it was that he came back different and was troubled. Whereas you read him to feel that this was something Sam needed to learn how to be - tough enough to kill to survive. That's just so amusing to me that we ( ... )
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That's very interesting! By which I mean, I like that idea more than the one I've been assuming which is that he really did come back different somehow. Just the way he took down Jake seemed so cold, yet that would be explainable as, well, Jake did kill him after all I suppose. Hmmm... I like the idea that Dean's deal - the reason he's alive - is ultimately the reason he "came back wrong" as opposed to him literally having some inner change that is now manifesting itself through his love for Dean as his willingness to do anything to save him.
It certainly fits the idea of Gordon - that because he believed he had no choice, he could become a monster - while we the viewers know he actually did have a choice. Sam may believe that he did come back different, wrong - and that allows him to act in ways he wouldn't have countenanced before. Yet again, it's still his choice, part of who he is, just released by his ( ... )
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And the end scene will be happy place for a very long-ass time. And I do think Sera is capable of the subtle, she just seems to prefer to be anvilicious for some reason. Yet I found myself loving that scene with Dean and Dixon because of the quiet way Jensen played it. Dean's face just oozed with the pain of it all and that added a bit of subtly to it in a way.
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Sorry. I added one in after the cut as well.
I do think Sera is capable of the subtle, she just seems to prefer to be anvilicious for some reason.
She likes her melodrama.
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although I've already forgotten her exact words. Was it "Yeah, that's what I thought."
I am so bad at remember exact quotes for some reason. Set it to music and I'm good, but quotes I always get wrong.
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